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Will Scarlet Dragon be upgradable to next generation sensor??

Javier Badet

Javier Badet

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Hi,

My one million dollar question that nobody seems to be wondering. As a Scarlet Dragon owner, don't see a really good deal/improvement with new Scarlet-W as with other upgrades.I'd like to know when next generation comes in future, if Scarlet Dragon owners can upgrade to new generation with a real trade-in deal, not a discount... I'm sure some people (rental companies) like the discount because they can keep the cameras, but for me (user) this wasn't the news I was hoping for... Let me tell you why:

First of all, the camera price when down 5k... It's not like I don't like cheaper prices but that means my Scarlet Dragon when down 5k or more the price I paid as well... So as people and Red are saying, if you don't want to keep your camera and have a fake trade-in, you should sell your Scarlet Dragon, and with that money and the discount you get a good deal. Question is, who is going to buy a Scarlet Dragon at a reasonable used price when Scarlet-W would cost only a few more dollars new?? So that means I have to sell my beloved Scarlet Dragon for nothing...

Now let's talk about new DSMC2 system and accessories. When I first got a Scarlet-X a few years ago, I was told, don't worry, all your accessories will work on next models, so you buy now and keep them for long.. That wasn't 100% true. Yes, some of the accessories work on new cameras, but as I see it, almost all modules and all the redmags that I have won't work, and that means I have to sell and buy new. OBSOLESCENCE OBSOLETE. This obsolescence obsolete is what at beginning made me jump to the Red system, but what I was expecting with this new DSMC2 system is that all my modules would be compatible or that I would get a trade-in system as well. But I guess I expecting too much... Then probably that would be best company ever. (I'm starting to feel the same as Apple did with pro users, now that we have the trust of pro users, let's attack the consumers market).

So as the new Scarlet-W to Scarlet Dragon, the other think that I don't like is why isn't a 6K stills. (and sidehandle with redvolt, probably we'll see one soon). Isn't a next camera? then why we are loosing specs? I understand you want to keep the sensors than won't work at 6K but work at 5k, but then you could make more models in the line. Saying all that, Red or anyone, I'd be really happy to know if I can wait to new generation sensor to get a real trade-in or I have to go trough Scarlet-W?? And if so, can I upgrade to Epic Dragon? That would be my best choice at the moment rather than Scarlet-W and then go to next generation on a trade-in. I feel there is a big gap between Scarlet-W and Weapon. Yes, that is a price gap that I honestly can't afford that wasn't there on Scarlet-Epic.

Finally, the most important part is the sensor, with Weapon, Epic Dragon, Scarlet Dragon, Scarlet-W all share the same sensor on different resolutions/speed, but at 5k 24 fps, same image quality... So my main concern is what will happen on next generation sensor and what DSMCs(or sensors) will be available to move on this obsolescence obsolete.


Thank you for reading and I hope is all understandable, english is not my first language. I love how Red works on terms of feedback with users. Other companies should learn from this. I think is what make this company best. RedUser.net!
 
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One of the things that I think people get hung up on, is their trade in value, resale value or residual value. However you want to look at it. But cameras are not keepsake objects, at least they are not supposed to be. They are tools, and tools that can be used to make money. If you have a RED camera, any camera really, get jobs. Make money. Everyone complains about what these things cost, but when you move into the RED ecosystem (unless you are a wealthy hobbyist a which point it doesn't really matter) you should be seeking to recoup your investment by working the thing. That way, when a new camera comes along, it won't matter that much because you will have made your money and, a living as well. My father was a land surveyor and he called his transit "the gun". If you have a "gun" (and you know how to use it) you can get people to pay you to shoot it. If not, you can't. Simple. Cameras are the same. If you have a Scarlet D, shoot with it till the wheels fall off. Then, buy whatever is new at the time, again, another business investment. And as to those accessories you bought? You still have them. They still work. RED isn't coming into people's homes and taking their stuff. They are offering new stuff, but you don't have to buy it to remain viable for the time being.
 
It would take a bit of time to go through all of your concerns, which I don't have right this minute. But I can say one thing about a future upgrade path for Scarlet Dragon. (BTW, I, too, currently own a Scarlet Dragon)...

I doubt you will see any additional tracks to go forward with your camera. RED has given us the pattern on which they move forward: sensor upgrade followed by body/electronics (ASICs) upgrade and then repeat. As they describe it: tic-toc.

So, the last sensor upgrade was Dragon - which we currently have in our Scarlets. The next step, happening now, is that the original DSMC body and ASICs are being upgraded to what I'll called the "Weapon platform," often referred to as DSMC2. With your current Scarlet-D, you are halfway into that transition. Like you, I was expecting the next step might be to transplant the current (Dragon) sensor in our cameras into the new DSMC2 body. Apparently, that process has proven too expensive and/or cumbersome for RED to do and they are opting for the trade-in program to Scarlet-W instead.

The bottom line is that the next iteration of the tic-tic cycle, when that happens, will be the creation of a whole new sensor which, if the pattern holds, will be dropped into the DSMC2 body. If RED were to offer any "holdout" Scarlet Dragon owners a chance to upgrade to that camera, they would again have to make it a trade-in anyway because no part of the old camera would be useable in the new one. At the point, Scarlet-D would be both old sensor and old body/ASICs. Just like the end of the line for "deals" for the Scarlet/Dragon MXs finally came (with due warning). I think you are seeing the final deals on the upgrade path for Dragon.

Keep in mind, too, that you always have the opportunity to upgrade to a Weapon Mg if you feel that the Scarlet-W is a step backward. Expensive, for sure, but one hell of a high level camera!
 
Scott, true, but you want your investments to be as more efficient as possible, and at the time technology is evolving(and consumers are demanding), there isn't that much time to recover an investment. Unless you are a rental company and you live in Los Angeles.

Terry, I never saw it as a upgrade path of first sensor and then body, so I understand more clearly now the upgrade to Scarlet-W. But still bothers me why there isn't a 6K stills when it was before... (not saying why technically).
 
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Additional thought - honestly, I was sort of expecting the next upgrade opportunity for me from RED to cost me around $10K. Not sure what the spec would have been but I try not to second guess where they are going since it tends to create frustration anyway. I agree that 6K would have been nice.

But, with the idea of getting a brand new additional camera for $12K while keeping the Scarlet Dragon, it seems a pretty sweet conundrum to be in. I probably won't keep two cameras but I could if I wanted and that would give the 6K stills mode as well as a "bonus" second camera to shoot moving images as well! All for a couple grand more than I thought my upgrade cost would be - and I honestly didn't think that $10K would have gotten me any DSMC2 accessories. In the end, I think the Scarlet-W deal is pretty great for Scarlet-D owners. And, it looks like it will be available for awhile!
 
Stacey Spears said:
I am too lazy to find the post right now, but I believe Jarred posted recently that the next gen sensor will require a DSMC[SUP]2[/SUP] brain.
Click to expand...

I'm absolutely certain that is the case. I am also confident that it's only a matter of time (and not very much of it) before Scarlet and Epic Dragon (DSMC bodies) will be EOL'd in the RED store.
 
Terry VerHaar said:
Additional thought - honestly, I was sort of expecting the next upgrade opportunity for me from RED to cost me around $10K. Not sure what the spec would have been but I try not to second guess where they are going since it tends to create frustration anyway. I agree that 6K would have been nice.

But, with the idea of getting a brand new additional camera for $12K while keeping the Scarlet Dragon, it seems a pretty sweet conundrum to be in. I probably won't keep two cameras but I could if I wanted and that would give the 6K stills mode as well as a "bonus" second camera to shoot moving images as well! All for a couple grand more than I thought my upgrade cost would be - and I honestly didn't think that $10K would have gotten me any DSMC2 accessories. In the end, I think the Scarlet-W deal is pretty great for Scarlet-D owners. And, it looks like it will be available for awhile!
Click to expand...

I was a bit disappointed and pissed off when I saw the offer. I guess I was expecting more than 48fps @5k and a better datarate than Raven. Plus the price, as an european who has to pay taxes, which is around 16000$ here (instead of 12000). But I changed my mind, the scarlet-W is a fantastic camera which can shoot anything from documentaries to Hollywood features. It has more than what I need. I'm just a bit worried about my scarlet dragon. I will sell it and hope Red will not reduce suddenly the price of the scarlet-D before we get the W and sell the D. That would be nice to be able to get the offer and sell it before the scarlet-W is shipping but it seems we can't. We would sell it for a better price.
 
I'm not selling my Scarlet Dragon to buy a new Scarlet W. I just bought it this year. I use mini-mags. I don't really need higher frame rates, I don't need Pro Res in the camera. 5K at 8:1 works great for me. Since it's not an upgrade I don't feel compelled to get going with the DSMC2 body for future upgrades. Actually, it's a bit of a relief. I don't have to think about offloading my accessories. I'll just buy the next camera when there's a new sensor in how ever many years and shoot the crap out of this SD in the meantime.
 
Javier - I can definitely sympathise with you and understand completely where you are coming from. But here is my take on this issue, for what it is worth...:

1st the Obsolescence Obsolete. You need to keep in mind the key RED policy about "Everything Changes". But even so - to Jim's and Jarred's credit - they have over the years constantly reminded us that the route forward is sea saw between body and sensor. RED ONE got a sensor upgrade to MX and then the MX sensor went to the new DSMC body (Scarlet and Epic). Then DSMC bodies got the new Dragon sensor and the Dragon went to the new DSMC2 bodies. So in the next step DSMC2 bodies will get new sensors beyond Dragon. And so on and so forth. We can't claim this is a surprise...

But please consider this. The golden standard and future-proof format for a while is going to be 4K. Even thou we here in Tokyo are directly involved in the 8K evolution - I can tell you that even NHK plans (and they are the leaders in introducing new standards to the broadcasting world) to use 8K alongside 4K for quite a while (read at least the next 10 years). While the original Scarle was 4K - this was not ideal due to debayering process. The Scarlet Dragon addressed this with its 5K sensor (and you can even do 6K for time-lapses, etc). And unlike the Raven - Scarlet can change mounts and OLPF, allowing for much greater optical path flexibility. So with Scarlet Dragon you have a state-of-the-art digital camera system that will serve you well for at least the next 10 years. My first Scarlet (MX) paid itself off within the first year...

I know that from you PoV the glass is half empty. For Hugh above the glass is half full. Just remember that the glass is always full. It is full of water and air. Everything in life is a relative thing based on your PoV. When you figure this out you will greatly improve the quality of your life...

Peter
 
Terry VerHaar said:
I'm absolutely certain that is the case.
Click to expand...

Okay, I found the post from Jarred.

Jarred Land said:
Thats wrong... the next sensor you will need the DSMC2 internals. Epic has already had 2 rounds of sensors just like the RED ONE did. Like someone else mentioned, it is a tick-tock cycle. There is a point where you need new ASICS to take advantage of new Senors, and vice versa.
Click to expand...

The Raven and Scarlet are low priced in terms of RED cameras, so trade-in's probably do not make as much sense from REDs point of view. E.g. Scarlet owners get $2500 trade-in for Weapon or get a $2500 discount off the Scarlet-W package and keep your camera.
 
I was just wondering if they would give us more options since they share same sensor. There is a big gap on price between Scarlet-W and Weapon that wasn't before with Scarlet-Epic. Scarlet-W isn't a great deal for some Scarlet Dragon owners in terms of image quality. So I was hoping they would give us the opportunity to wait till next sensor with a trade-in, either you have Scarlet Dragon or Scarlet-W, but I guess I was expecting too much...

Now my debate is what is worth on my terms, keep with Scarlet Dragon or update to Scarlet-W and then be able to continue with "trade-ins" in future and don't be obsolete.


Or I just thought on an interesting way to upgrade and don't loose 6K. Since it's all matter of sensor (I guess), I'd be happy to give my Scarlet Dragon sensor and then this to be installed on the new DSMC2 body, in that way I won't loose 6K stills. Wouldn't that be great?
New Threat: http://www.reduser.net/forum/showth...gon-sensor-was-installed-on-the-new-Scarlet-W
 
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As for the RED store price of the Scarlet Dragon, I imagine you will see it phase out before you see a price change. When the Scarlet-W starts shipping, I think Scarlet Dragon is EOL. And I doubt they'll sell too many of them between now and Spring - unless someone has the idea of buying one to get good deal on the new Scarlet-W package. :ohmy:

That said, I also don't see Scarlet Dragons becoming "cheap." There may be a few who panic and think they have to "dump" their Scarlet-Ds to pay for the Scarlet-W they just bought, but I think prices will remain "reasonable" for that camera because it is so terribly competent. Of course, we all have different definitions of reasonable.

They way I see it, should I decide to sell my Dragon, I will also be selling a bunch of modules and accessories that will work with it but won't with the new generation (DSMC2). While, I will undoubtedly take a "haircut" on each item, the ability to offer someone a very complete shooting package for a good price will allow me to recover much of investment in the Scarlet Dragon brain and then some. In some ways, it will be nice to purge my kit of a lot of equipment I have accumulated over the years to "start clean" with the new platform - until, of course, we see DSMC3 introduced. LOL
 
Terry VerHaar said:
That said, I also don't see Scarlet Dragons becoming "cheap." There may be a few who panic and think they have to "dump" their Scarlet-Ds to pay for the Scarlet-W they just bought, but I think prices will remain "reasonable" for that camera because it is so terribly competent. Of course, we all have different definitions of reasonable.
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And there is still 6k for stills that the new scarlet doesn't have.
 
Stacey Spears said:
Sam, do you ever shoot 6k stills on your Scarlet? Always curious how many actually use the 6k feature on Scarlet. I think for Timelapse, 6k makes total sense.
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I don't but several people were complaining these last days about the scarlet losing 6k because they used it. So i guess it can be an extra spec that will push Red to let the price as it is.
 
To answer the OP:

NO, Scar-D will not be upgradable to the next "Omicron"* RED sensor tech.

Peter Majtan said:
...in the next step DSMC2 bodies will get new sensors beyond Dragon.
Click to expand...

And this too

Hugh Scully said:
I'll just buy the next camera when there's a new sensor in how ever many years and shoot the crap out of this SD in the meantime.
Click to expand...

Yeah, frankly any version of Dragon is so good, that for many shooting at speed, you are more then fine.

but the next sensor on the DSMC2 platform is what to keep an eye on for existing DSMC1 Dragon owners.


If you can spring it, VVeapon 8K will be the bees knees, but for me it will be a rental.

for new buyers in the indie market embracing the future, Raven is soo sweet and the clear choice.
(man oh man, wish there was a mono Raven, but i'll shut up about that :devil:)




*"Omicron" is just what i'm using in reference to the next generation RED sensor.
The word literally means "little great" and is just past the middle of the greek alphabet.
 
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