Will build 15 address this little issue?

[Jeff Kilgroe]

I know that Jim says build 15 is all about image quality. He has also said that we should not let our expectations get too lofty. However, I will be disappointed if no further improvements are made to the dreaded black or purple sun, sensor protect flaring, whatever you wanna call it...

No, that's not me in the picture, nor is it the owner of camera #232. It's another REDUSER member, he can stand up and identify himself if he wants.

RED #232, Build 14. 4K 2:1 29.97fps 180 shutter. Cooke 18-100 @ T3 ASA 320.

1:1 crop of flared area.

 

[Finner]

Man that is ugly. The sword that is, not the funny looking dude with the sword.

How many frames are like that? Any chance on putting up a clip of it to be able to see it on motion?

 

[Jeff Kilgroe]

Man that is ugly. The sword that is, not the funny looking dude with the sword.

Heh. no chance of him taking credit now. But the sword and the leather jacket almost make him look cool. I should be nice though, I stood in front of the camera too, who knows what could get posted.... I tried to put on the leather jacket, but I didn't fit. Heh.

How many frames are like that? Any chance on putting up a clip of it to be able to see it on motion?

It's as many frames as I want it to be... I can reproduce the flare all day long. We have several clips we shot the other day with this. It's actually kinda cool in a geeky "that's screwed up" sort of way to watch it travel up and down the katana blade.

I'll post a clip shortly..

 

[Juha Kinnunen]

-Do you see this artefact in RAW material also?
-What are your rendering settings in Red Alert?
-Have you tried with different lens? Altough this looks like digital thing, not a lens issue...

 

[Lachlan Ward]

I know it needs fixing, thats for sure, and I want no one to get the wrong idea, but! I kind of like it... Don't flame me too badly. It looks like some kind of sci-fi light saber effect.

 

[Warwick Brown]

yeah i get the same effect with my mobile camera,needs fixing

 

[Harry Clark]

If I've said it once, I've said it a million times...
Just have the darn thing clip white...
H.

 

[Radoslav Karapetkov]

This makes it look like a laser saber.

Maybe this defect can be used as an effect at some place.

But here? Mm-no... :detective2:

 

[A. Bastaki]

I highly doubt it.

but man is that so grainless... it gives me the heebiedabajeebies!
________
List of ferrari engines history

 

[David Birdy]

My 2 cents.......

Flares are a product of light hitting the lens.
Broadcast cameras with "realtime" operator control panels can compensate for flares but not eliminate the flares completely when a strong light is pointed directly into the lens.

The clips should be set at 105-110 IRE or use an ND filter...This will happen with any camera not just the RED One...So it's really the "Style" you are shooting and the camera set-up... It's not a Camera problem..Film cameras can also have light flares.

Dave

 

[MikeHedge]

no!!!!!! this is build 14? aaaah! is that purple spot in the middle something that RED is doing in the overexposed areas?

 

[Brent J. Craig]

This example is very deceiving! The first 10 times I looked at it I thought I was seeing a top-to-bottom sensor flare, like the old CCD cameras. If no one had mentioned that it was a sword I would never have even noticed it!

Could you perhaps find an example that doesn't give us less observant folks the wrong idea?

 

[Obin Olson]

go to white not sensor protect black!

 

[Erik Rangel]

the funny looking dude with the sword.

Hehe...YOU'RE funny looking.:bleh:

 

[Rich Schaefer]

I can say it is not me in the picture! :biggrin:

 

[Jeff Kilgroe]

The clips should be set at 105-110 IRE or use an ND filter...This will happen with any camera not just the RED One...So it's really the "Style" you are shooting and the camera set-up... It's not a Camera problem..Film cameras can also have light flares.

I agree to some extent. Normally one wouldn't over-expose something like this. And the problem is not the flare itself, it's the hot-point of the flare that gets clipped to black (or the purple spot).

As harryclark and obin have said, it just needs to clip out to white instead of black. Which doesn't seem like a difficult thing, but makes me worry that there may not be an easy way to fix this if RED hasn't done it already.

This wasn't the sun producing this flare, it was an HMI through a silk reflecting off the blade of a sword. We were just goofing off a bit setting up the camera and caught the flare -- saw the black spot right then and there on the LCD. Easy to reproduce, I'm surprised more people haven't run across it. It doesn't need bright sunlight to accomplish it.

It's an in-camera thing, it's present in the RAW data. Doesn't matter if it's processed in REDCINE or RED Alert or processed into which format. It's not a lens thing...

The "sensor protect" black flare has been drastically improved since LART. However, I still don't think a lot of people are aware that it still exists (or that it ever did exist).

To me, this is one of the last little things than need to be fixed in order to perfect the images from this camera. It's an issue that concerns me as I do a lot of shooting outdoors with dynamic subjects and can often get the sun or other bright reflections in frame. ND filters and setting zebras don't offer full protection if the camera catches a flare just right.

I'm not bashing RED and this isn't having an impact on my plans to buy the camera. It's just an issue that I, as a customer, believe needs to be fixed.

 

[Paris Remillard]

I'm wondering if it can actually be fixed or if it's a limitation of the sensor based on this:

http://www.appliedcolorscience.com/black_sun.htm

Maybe I misread or misunderstood, but it seems to be a byproduct of sensor design, so to be fixed, you'd need a different sensor. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

 

[David Birdy]

I am not aware of any sensor, CCD or CMOS that will not produce this effect
with very, bright subjects...The effect is the same with my Pentax D10 and any other camera I have worked with.

We use light to give us the best representation of any subject being captured by any means linear or non linear.

Jeff,
I certainly did not take your comments as RED Bashing...we all need to speak our minds here or we should just log off as this forum would not be useful!

If I were to correct this issue this is how I would go about it.

1 Use dulling spray for the sword....most hair spray works well.

2 Bring up the ambient room light to match the high level of the sword.

3 Check the clip levels and set them for 105 ire by using the Waveform monitor.

4 Use a ND filter when shooting out side.

5 Increase the distance between the sword and the light source.

Thanks for posting the pic and making us aware of this. The age old shooting techniques still apply here. The really good news is:
Shoot it, review it, change the lighting or clips until you get the shot you are happy with...this is an absolute advantage digital has over chemical mediums.

I good DIT is worth his/her weight in gold onset with any production using a digital camera.

Dave

 

[Finner]

I am not aware of any sensor, CCD or CMOS that will not produce this effect
with very, bright subjects...The effect is the same with my Pentax D10 and any other camera I have worked with.

We use light to give us the best representation of any subject being captured by any means linear or non linear.

Jeff,
I certainly did not take your comments as RED Bashing...we all need to speak our minds here or we should just log off as this forum would not be useful!

If I were to correct this issue this is how I would go about it.

1 Use dulling spray for the sword....most hair spray works well.

2 Bring up the ambient room light to match the high level of the sword.

3 Check the clip levels and set them for 105 ire by using the Waveform monitor.

4 Use a ND filter when shooting out side.

5 Increase the distance between the sword and the light source.

Thanks for posting the pic and making us aware of this. The age old shooting techniques still apply here. The really good news is:
Shoot it, review it, change the lighting or clips until you get the shot you are happy with...this is an absolute advantage digital has over chemical mediums.

I good DIT is worth his/her weight in gold onset with any production using a digital camera.

Dave

Dave I have not seen this effect with any other digital or film cameras. We are not talking about the flare here or need advice on how to avoid flares. Flares are normal with every camera and yes do happen all the time. What we are talking about is how the most intense IRE section of the flare clips and turns black when it should turn white like every other camera.

 

[Jeff Kilgroe]

I'm wondering if it can actually be fixed or if it's a limitation of the sensor based on this:

http://www.appliedcolorscience.com/black_sun.htm

Yes, this is also what I am wondering. Perhaps it's a characteristic of the Mysterium sensor that cannot be avoided. However, it has already been improved in the "X" cameras and hopefully more can be done.