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Wildlife feature in Africa - 3K, and other questions

Definitely Tom...

I pointed to the overcrank possibilities (all specs subject to change) of Epic and Scarlet a few times earlier in this thread.

I'm salivating at the possibilities for both Epic and Scarlet for non-hardlined EFP and hybrid production of sports and wildlife.
 
Steve, am I correct in assuming it will be easy to mount Canon and Nikon FF35 lenses on the 2/3" "cinema" Scarlet?

Larry Gebhardt was telling me that he's been putting Canon/Nikon FF35 glass on his Sony EX3 with very impressive results, in terms of the images. Obviously the crop factor is enormous for that kind of setup.
 
I'm hoping that will be the case Tom. As you know with RED, all specifications are subject to change, so until the specs for Epic and Scarlet are finalized, and stated as such, we can just guess.

I have a feeling the future is going to be very interesting for all of us though...:-)
 
Not to jinx it or anything, but I get the feeling we will be hearing from Red within the next month or two regarding schedules.
 
Tom said:
Steve, am I correct in assuming it will be easy to mount Canon and Nikon FF35 lenses on the 2/3" "cinema" Scarlet?

Larry Gebhardt was telling me that he's been putting Canon/Nikon FF35 glass on his Sony EX3 with very impressive results, in terms of the images. Obviously the crop factor is enormous for that kind of setup.
Click to expand...

One problem in using glass designed for larger image than the acctual sensor is that sharpness will be sacrificed. There is a bit of talk whether the lens "covers the sensor", but what is also important is that if a FF35 lens resolves, say 60lp/mm, it would correspond to over 4k on a FF35 (respectable) and only about 1.4k on a 2/3" sensor (poor).

It is always best to match the lens image circle and the sensor size as close as possible. Remember? Red 300 prime resulted in 25% MTF at 50 lp/mm (reasonably good for FF35), but relatively poor for S35 and compared to 65% MTF of a Master Prime that is matched to the S35 sensor size.

At the very long end, you will get better results from a $60k 40x or 44x HD zoom rather than long still lens on a small sensor.
 
Pawel,

As you might guess I have a very good grasp of the technical side of lenses. I can appreciate comparative properties of the various lens types, their limitations, strengths and weaknesses. But motion media production is a business, and a wise fiscal survival strategy is to balance meeting the technical requirements of our viewing medium (theatrical, HDTV, small screen, disk), and the aesthetic expectations of our audience – while keeping those two parameters within a reasonable budget. Basically it boils down to simultaneously maximizing technology while minimizing expense. This is a business – and every person in it who wants to survive must use good business principles.

This is the EFP/ENG and RED forum. Why even talk about Master Primes here? Yes, Master Primes are excellent cine-style lenses – but they are rarely used in hardlined or non-hardlined EFP style work – because they are too costly, require expensive and bulky cine-style accessories, don’t suit the field needs of most of the genres of EFP work (except narrative sometimes), and on and on. Beyond that, the technical requirements of Producer’s Guidelines for TV networks and the aesthetic expectations of the audience in EFP genres simply don’t require Master Prime levels of lens performance. Horses for courses, right? There’s no need to kill flies with a baseball bat.

This is also a “Wildlife Feature in Africa – 3k and other questions” thread. Master Primes would be an extremely impractical lens choice for wildlife production, where you need long focal lengths, need the ability to change focal lengths constantly for safety and expedience sake (zooms are the ticket for that), and quite often production budgets are moderate or skinny.

Since the topic of this thread is wildlife theatrical production, could you imagine the theater audience for a wildlife documentary like March of the Penguins exchanging comments in the theater like: “Hmmm…the MTF curve and lp/mm performance on these shots just isn’t up to par with Master Primes”, “I don’t think those camera people know enough about image circles”, “How dare them try to sneak in a 35mm stills lens on us!”, etc. No, if the images are compelling and well shot, the audience is happy...:-)

Yes, we have to go left brained enough to analyze and utilize technology and maintain a budget – but we also have to go right brained enough to get out and acquire beautiful, aesthetically pleasing images which will keep our distribution outlets (theaters, TV networks, etc.) and audience happy. With EFP and hybrid production using RED (and Epic and Scarlet to come), especially in a budget-challenged indie world, that quite often involves balancing cost-effective optics and accessories with also achieving the quality of image needed for our distribution outlets and audience – thus we see a lot of RED camera users exploring the good optics/low cost varieties of 35mm stills lenses as a very viable option.

$60k USD B4 2/3” HD zooms on an inexpensive Scarlet 2/3” camera that will be used in mobile production? I just don’t see that happening very often. So again, people will explore the 35mm stills lens options on the Scarlet 2/3” camera, as Tom has brought up. These aren’t people who need or can afford $60k HD zooms, and certainly not Master Primes. They’ll be after the best image they can get with smaller, mobile lenses, usually 35mm stills zooms for EFP and hybrid style work, but also small mobile and inexpensive primes when they do small to mid-budget narrative work.

It’s way too early to define what lenses will or won’t work effectively on a 2/3” Scarlet – or any of the other models of Epic and Scarlet. The technical specs haven’t been finalized yet, let alone field-testing and actual usage experimentation with various lens types on those cameras. At this stage any suggestions for lens usage on those cameras are mere speculation and extrapolation.

Me, Lauri, and others on this thread have given the thread starter, Mike Holding, some very accurate input for RED One solutions for his upcoming production. That’s real-world input from experienced veterans of the wildlife genre who’ve used RED One extensively. Master Primes, or for that matter any primes, simply don’t fit the mobility, danger threat, fleeting behavior, and instantaneous need to re-frame needs of almost all wildlife production. In a stationary blind, and/or for certain types of wildlife production, long primes can be an option. But zooms are the overwhelming choice of lens for that genre – except for a few specialty areas where a lot of short primes are also used (underwater, etc).

Cine zooms are also usually very impractical for wildlife, nature, and sports production with RED – because of their high cost, high weight, low focal length ratios, need for expensive and heavy accessories, etc. B4 2/3” HD zooms on RED One limit you to 2k acquisition only – OK for some productions, but not an option for those who want to shoot 3k (like Mike Holder), or 4k. That leaves 35mm stills zooms, which have done very well on RED in those genres, being cost-effective, small for their focal length range, are optically quite good for the intended distribution outlets – and audiences basically never know the difference. Virtually all shooters with RED in the wildlife, nature, and sports genres also eye focus the camera racking a lens barrel – so gears, follow focus units, etc are not needed – thus cine lenses are again a liability rather than an asset in these genres.

I love various primes and Master Primes – they’re beautiful, well crafted, optically excellent lenses – and I’ve used them at times in other genres when a shot sequence called for such. The new RED Pro Primes are also very excellent lenses. But smart and informed wildlife, nature, and sports shooters with RED One, who are budget conscious, but still want good and mobile optics, overwhelmingly use 35mm stills zooms – for the good reasons I've illustrated above.
 
Steve Gibby said:
Since the topic of this thread is wildlife theatrical production, could you imagine the theater audience for a wildlife documentary like March of the Penguins exchanging comments in the theater like: “Hmmm…the MTF curve and lp/mm performance on these shots just isn’t up to par with Master Primes”...
Click to expand...

:smilielol5:

Steve, you're just a wimp. Don't you know that when Pawel shoots in Africa, he chases lions across the Serengeti with 50mm Master Primes! :thumbsup:
 
I can respect that...:-)

To each their own in camera, lens, and accessory choices. For me, I just tend to try and keep an open mind with each project and ask myself: "What's the best camera, lens, and accessory setup options for this project and its budget" - then proceed accordingly.

Its all good Pawel...I'm just illustrating what has worked for me and the others I work with who produce and shoot a lot of projects in the wildlife, nature, sports, and adventure travel genres.
 
Hi, you mentioned using the 24-290 optimo. If you use a 2x extender with that lens, that gets you to 48-580 at around a t 5.6. That's a pretty good compromise, and there should be plenty of light for stopping down to an 8-11ish for snap. Although not as sharp, or fast an Ang. 25-250 HR or HP with 2x would get you more or less the same thing in a smaller package.

I believe a 2x extender on the Ang. 12-240 covers the whole sensor and gets you 24-480mm, although not terribly fast. Stopped down it should be reasonably sharp. And that's smaller still.

It is a challenge to get long and reasonably wide on the full frame sensor, ther is going to be a compromise somewhere.

Cheers,

Nick
 
I think Gibby was right when he said that Master Primes are mostly not well suited for a wildlife shooting especially in a hot Africa...

a lot of different field risks could be involved for such expensive lenses...

But somebody should know that the Master Primes like a super-speed lenses are more suited for drama/feature/commercial in a highly controled type of work/environment especially at available light:

"Application:

The Master Prime lenses open up new creative opportunities, making shots possible that would have been considered

impossible before. A widest stop of T1.3 allows shooting in low or available light for more natural-looking shots and a

reduction of the lighting budget. In addition, a wide open stop creates the cinematic look of an extremely shallow depth of field."

LINK>>>

I'll give now you one more example about a famous drama/feature where Master Primes used for shooting indoor scenes in "The Reader" by Stephen Daldry,

shot by Roger Deakins and Chris Menges that also were shot with Angenieux Optimo zooms in that film.

Reader1.jpg

Roger Deakins BSC, ASC operating remote dolly crane at The Reader.

Reader2.jpg

Remote dolly crane at The Reader with Arri 435 and Master Prime lens.

Also it is interesting to mention that Roger Deakins BSC, ASC watching at B&W CRT on-set monitor that means he and his

producers didn't need any special color monitor (16-bit internal processing for grayscale rendering) with a "PROFILE" to judge a picture quality made by Master Primes.

But, terribly sorry, that's a film production, I forgot it!!! :devil:

One more thing:

BTW, Roger Deakins BSC, ASC doesn't owe any Master Prime lens and he has some of Leica M lenses for Leica digital M 8.2 and his photography work.
 
Gibby is on the button once again, particularly in the context of this thread. I have worked on commercial/feature sets (so I know how much choice and control and time there is) and in wildlife, and the modus operadi is so diametrically different that they hardly bear comparison.

I shot a film about African wild dogs years ago – they hunt at 60 km/hr through thickly wooded country, riddled with huge ant-bear holes and fallen trees. Most chases are one minute long from start to finish. I had to be ready on the back of a 4x4 vehicle, anticipate their direction, accelerate to 60km/hr as fast as the vehicle could go, crash through treacherous woodland at that speed, get ahead of the hunt, choose a shooting position in 5 seconds or less, stop the vehicle, get the camera on the head, level, frame, focus and shoot in under 60 seconds. We got so slick at this after a year that from vehicle stop time to camera “rolling” was regularly under 12 seconds! :cool: Only an Arri S 16mm camera, and the 150-600 Canon could withstand this kind of action and allow us to get results, a few precious seconds at a time. Transferred to HD, the shots still look glorious today, and that’s 10 years down the line.

Yes, this is extreme, and not all wildlife shoots are that frantic, but as David Mullen points out, these are once in a lifetime moments that are over in seconds. The camera/ lens combination is a small, final element at the top of a complex pyramid that is based on years of planning, huge logistical complexity, finely tuned bush-craft and knowledge of animals etc etc. And the tools that are useable in a real word scenario are very limited – rugged, reliable cameras, easy to use long zooms, the very best fluid head you can buy. All else will get in the way of the moment. Yes, at the top of the pyramid, in the crucial seconds, a lens must produce a sharp, and hopefully artful image. But the bottom line is instant “use-ability” and practicality under extreme conditions.
 
Steve Gibby said:
This is also a “Wildlife Feature in Africa – 3k and other questions” thread. Master Primes would be an extremely impractical lens choice for wildlife production, where you need long focal lengths, need the ability to change focal lengths constantly for safety and expedience sake (zooms are the ticket for that), and quite often production budgets are moderate or skinny.

Since the topic of this thread is wildlife theatrical production, could you imagine the theater audience for a wildlife documentary like March of the Penguins exchanging comments in the theater like: “Hmmm…the MTF curve and lp/mm performance on these shots just isn’t up to par with Master Primes”, “I don’t think those camera people know enough about image circles”, “How dare them try to sneak in a 35mm stills lens on us!”, etc. No, if the images are compelling and well shot, the audience is happy...:-)
....
I love various primes and Master Primes – they’re beautiful, well crafted, optically excellent lenses – and I’ve used them at times in other genres when a shot sequence called for such. The new RED Pro Primes are also very excellent lenses. But smart and informed wildlife, nature, and sports shooters with RED One, who are budget conscious, but still want good and mobile optics, overwhelmingly use 35mm stills zooms – for the good reasons I've illustrated above.
Click to expand...


Steve,

Clearly you didn't understand my point. Probably my fault, but read my post again. I was not suggesting using MPs to shoot wildlife in Africa. That's something you made up. I used MP (S35) and Red 300 (FF35) as an example to ilustrate matching the lens image circle to the sensor size. That's all. You get suboptimal results if you use a lens designed for large image circle onto a smaller crop. The resolution and contrast of the lens degrade proportionally to the crop. Doesn't matter how many hardlined or non-hardlined projects you have done.

What I suggested was using ENG lens for ENG work. Also ENG camera would be a better match. Mike already mentioned he was shooting with the HJ 40x14and HJ 18x28 lenses on 2/3” HD cameras and, for that kind of magnification, I think ENG camera and ENG lens would produce superior results than 2/3" scarlet with a still FF35 lens. Horses for courses.

My point is that HJ40x produces beautiful pictures on F900 or Panasonic and, at this focal length, I can't see Mike getting better results on Scarlet 2/3" with long still lens.
 
2/3" Scarlet should be an ideal camera for high quality B4 HD lenses or S16 lenses with the appropriate mount. B4 is supposed to be a supported option for this camera. The HJ40X should produce superior images compared to 35mm still lenses on this camera for all the reasons that Pawel lists. There are certainly a lot more zoom options with B4 than any other format these days.
 
6) I anticipate using (budget permitting) Angenieux Optimo 17-80, 24-290, and Canon 150-600 lenses. Does anyone have any alternative lens suggestions they have used successfully for this type of film?

Check out the Long Leica R modular lenses 280/400/560/800 they are superb. The focus units can be relativly easily converted to PL.

We have been using 3K with some sucsess for similar subjects. Graeme may be able to give a real resolution figure for 3K, its quite a bit better than HD or 2K for practical use anyway.

Dave
 
So Scarlet 2/3" + HJ40X is the dream setup, huh?
 
Pawel Achtel said:
Steve,

Clearly you didn't understand my point. Probably my fault, but read my post again. I was not suggesting using MPs to shoot wildlife in Africa. That's something you made up. I used MP (S35) and Red 300 (FF35) as an example to ilustrate matching the lens image circle to the sensor size. That's all. You get suboptimal results if you use a lens designed for large image circle onto a smaller crop. The resolution and contrast of the lens degrade proportionally to the crop. Doesn't matter how many hardlined or non-hardlined projects you have done.
Click to expand...

No, I clearly understood where you were going with the MP’s. Setting them up as the standard for lp/mm, and then a discourse on comparative image circles. You entirely missed my points. “Suboptimal results” is a largely subjective term. Precise image circle matching of lenses for sensor size for wildlife, nature, and sports shooting is nowhere near as critical as it is for the narrative genres which are the staple in trade for MPs and other high end primes. 35mm still zooms and some primes have been and are now used heavily for shooting wildlife, nature, and sports with RED One. Even for productions in those genres destined for theatrical release, and certainly for HDTV and disk use, 35mm stills lenses on RED are fine. Again, you’re drawing conclusions on what lenses will or won’t work well on a 2/3” Scarlet without the technical specifications of that camera even being finalized and released, much less field tested with a variety of lenses. IMO you’ve jumped to conclusions that shouldn’t be drawn yet.


Pawel Achtel said:
What I suggested was using ENG lens for ENG work. Also ENG camera would be a better match. Mike already mentioned he was shooting with the HJ 40x14and HJ 18x28 lenses on 2/3” HD cameras and, for that kind of magnification, I think ENG camera and ENG lens would produce superior results than 2/3" scarlet with a still FF35 lens. Horses for courses.
Click to expand...

First of all Pawel, if you’re going to post 2/3” lens recommendations here on the EFP/ENG for RED forum, I think you should get your acronyms right. ENG is an acronym for Electronic News Gathering. RED One is almost never used for ENG. If you need a primer on the difference between EFP and ENG you can find a summary of that in my sticky thread at the head of this forum. Secondly, the HJ40 and most other high-end HD 2/3” lenses of long focal length are not ENG lenses, and are virtually never used in ENG. They are used extensively in both non-hardlined and hardlined EFP – Electronic Field Production. B4 2/3” lenses on RED must use the RED B4 adaptor to spread the image 6% to cover 2k. I’ve owned a RED B4 adaptor since August 207, when I took delivery of my first RED camera. The image is slightly softer than a 2k image shot without the adaptor glass. With B4 lenses on RED you’re limited to 2k shooting. Using Graeme’s .78 debayer factor, 2k debayers down to around 1.34k. That simply won’t cut it for Mike Holding’s theatrical wildlife production. Frankly, I don’t think that would be as good an image on a 2/3” Scarlet as that of using a 35mm stills lens and shooting 3k, rather than the 2k you'd be limited to with a B4 2/3" HD zoom. I’ll have one of the very first Scarlet (and Epic) cameras, so I’ll be one of the first to field test Scarlet (and Epic) with a variety of lenses. Then we’ll know performance parameters of different lens types on those cameras. Horses for courses? How about the right tool for the right job. B4 2/3” HD lenses have rarely been the “right tool” on RED One, and probably will also rarely be the “right tool” on Scarlet and Epic. If Mike Holding shoots his wildlife feature on Scarlet and Epic, it would most likely be a S35 or FF35 Scarlet and a S35 Epic X – which will undoubtedly do extremely well with 35mm stills zooms – just as RED One has.

Pawel Achtel said:
My point is that HJ40x produces beautiful pictures on F900 or Panasonic and, at this focal length, I can't see Mike getting better results on Scarlet 2/3" with long still lens.
Click to expand...

You’re preaching to the choir now Pawel. There is absolutely nobody with a RED One camera who has experimented as long, and with as many B4 2/3” HD lenses on RED One as me. At times I have used about every high-end 2/3” HD lens made on RED One, from Fujinon and Canon – including the B4 lenses Mike Holding asked about and you referred to. At various times since RED User was formed, I’ve posted lots of photos of my REDs with a multitude of B4 2/3’ HD zooms. For that last National Geographic Channel wildlife documentary I was one of the executive producers and a DP for, shot extensively in Alaska, we used RED One underwater (with an Arri 8R and RED 18-50), and on land (with a Canon 150-600), but we also used an F900 with various HD EFP zooms, and for aerial and boat-mounted CineFlex shooting we used a Sony HDC1500 with a Fujinon 42x9.7 and a Fujinon wide angle. If you’d spent any time at all on this EFP/ENG for RED forum you’d know I’m the wrong guy to preach to about the plusses and minuses of 2/3” cameras and HD EFP/ENG zooms.

-------------

I can appreciate your enthusiasm for your Master Primes, and you seem to have a pretty good technical knowledge of lenses. But I think you need to reserve judgment on the nuances and limitations of a 2/3” Scarlet until the specifications are finalized and guys like me who get the first cameras have a chance to test them out with a variety of lenses. Then we can draw some conclusions on what will and won’t work well on them. But IMO at this point left-brained lp/mm and image circle data extrapolation on 2/3” Scarlet performance parameters is extremely premature.
 
2/3" Scarlet is 3k resolution in an 11mm image circle. It will take lenses with higher resolving power than 35mm still lenses to get the best results out of this camera. S16 or B4 premium lenses will be necessary. I was not suggesting that this is better image wise than 4k S35 with larger format lenses any more than I would suggest S16 film as a superior alternative to 35mm. It does offer significant size, weight and portability advantages for field use.

It will be interesting to see how 2/3" 3k with good 16mm/B4 glass compares with 3k cropped S35 with 35mm glass.
 
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