Why the hack is there no build in follow focus in Canon EF Mount

[Maik Müller]

I looked into this, and there is a "Focus: Near" and "Focus: Far"-function which you can map on buttons and wheels. But that was there in previous builds too. I had played around with it in v4 a few times and today in v5. Unless i've overseen something there are no changes. The biggest "problem" for me is the size of the focus-steps. They're too big to use them for smooth focus-pulling during a take. But making them smaller wouldn't be a good idea too, because of the small clicking wheels. It works and can be helpful, especially with the REDMOTE, but it's not yet a full EFF. My guess still is there is just the right controller missing and the software could already do it.

BTW, i think the AF got a bit better too and it finally works at 5k on Scarlet!

 

[Werner Jauch]

Actually it was possible as long ago as 1 year ago to pull focus using Canon lens using the wheel on the redmote. Not perfect though, as when I did it I noticed the focus distance changes in increments rather than continuously. Worked ok for the one shot I used it on though. By memory I had to get the redmote window with focus distance highlighted and then turn the wheel.

 

[Steffen Baermann]

so we need some magic

so we need some magic

It looks very much to me, as if RED just mappes quickly what the connection in the camera can do. With a bit of love, it could be possible to use the buttons on the sidehandle as "Memory" points for focus. Give some speed choices and then also a soft stop and start. And then you have it. It really would make Red more usable for me. Less gear on set. Easier camera-movement and it could potentially make RED more attractive for documentery too ?

 

[Maik Müller]

It looks very much to me, as if RED just mappes quickly what the connection in the camera can do. With a bit of love, it could be possible to use the buttons on the sidehandle as "Memory" points for focus. Give some speed choices and then also a soft stop and start. And then you have it. It really would make Red more usable for me. Less gear on set. Easier camera-movement and it could potentially make RED more attractive for documentery too ?

Look into the Rack-Focus feature in beta 5. It has been greatly enhanced. You can now set up to 4 focus points, map them to buttons and change the speed.

 

[James McLellan]

Question is how repeatable is the rack focus. When I tested with canon 35 and 85 L after cycling about 5 times the focus points drifted. A discussion with the engineers at Lockcircle advised me that this might be unfixable. Thus my little experiment with electronic lenses ended. The whole thing is disappointing. But the RT motion follow focus kit is not.

 

[Jacek Zakowicz]

Question is how repeatable is the rack focus. When I tested with canon 35 and 85 L after cycling about 5 times the focus points drifted. A discussion with the engineers at Lockcircle advised me that this might be unfixable. Thus my little experiment with electronic lenses ended. The whole thing is disappointing. But the RT motion follow focus kit is not.

I can assure you that , if done correctly , focus won't drift. It doesn't drift on the OptiTron. Even after the lens is removed and remounted

 

[David Kuhn]

If the lens provides position feedback to the camera (either absolute or relative) or if it uses 'stepper drive' like motion than it shouldn't drift, if not than it probably will,

 

[Mike 'Fireman' Ross]

As much as this is flattering I hardly think that there is any competition to RED for REDMOTE. It's an encrypted proprietary system closed off to outsiders...

Dumb dumb dumb DUMB.

Why in hell would a company as smart as RED take the decision to do THAT?

There can't be that much margin or profit in REDmotes that they want to protect, there just can't.

I've said it before, I'll say it again, this is EXACTLY the kind of area where small innovative electronics outfits could make a whole bunch of complementary products, giving more choice and enhancing usability.

I'd happily put the REDmote on a shelf and call it Modern Art and never touch it again if I had what I've suggested before: an 'analogue' REDmote. A box with six big user-friendly traditional KNOBS, clearly marked SHUTTER IRIS FPS ISO AUDIO L AUDIO R - just like your good old steam-powered cameras (more or less). Heck it doesn't even have to be wireless; I just want something I can use by touch, or almost by touch, without poking in menus or fiddling with the REDmote.

You hear me guys? You know what I mean?

There must be a good reason for 'encrypted proprietary' but I'm damned if I can see it. Dislike.

(Oh and focus isn't such a big deal for me: stills AF glass and their motors don't have the precision, speed, or repeatability needed for true cinema focus pulling IMHO, for all that Jacek has been very clever with his gizmo )

Mike

 

[Erik Widding]

Question is how repeatable is the rack focus. When I tested with canon 35 and 85 L after cycling about 5 times the focus points drifted. A discussion with the engineers at Lockcircle advised me that this might be unfixable. Thus my little experiment with electronic lenses ended. The whole thing is disappointing.

Rack focus will repeat all day long with both of those lenses... so long as the engineer that designed the system really knows how to talk to the lens... because he, and his team, put thousands of man-hours into learning how to talk to the lenses...

I know this is what it takes, and I know this is possible, because Birger is the only company ever to achieve this in a commercial product, with a wide cross section of canon lenses. Look around for reviews on the web from users that have actually used one of our systems, and see what they have to say. I know the optitek system works quite well. Try it. Then take the lens (or lens cap) off, and you will see how I know.

 

[Michael Hastings]

Dumb dumb dumb DUMB.

Why in hell would a company as smart as RED take the decision to do THAT?

There can't be that much margin or profit in REDmotes that they want to protect, there just can't.

I've said it before, I'll say it again, this is EXACTLY the kind of area where small innovative electronics outfits could make a whole bunch of complementary products, giving more choice and enhancing usability.

I'd happily put the REDmote on a shelf and call it Modern Art and never touch it again if I had what I've suggested before: an 'analogue' REDmote. A box with six big user-friendly traditional KNOBS, clearly marked SHUTTER IRIS FPS ISO AUDIO L AUDIO R - just like your good old steam-powered cameras (more or less). Heck it doesn't even have to be wireless; I just want something I can use by touch, or almost by touch, without poking in menus or fiddling with the REDmote.

You hear me guys? You know what I mean?

There must be a good reason for 'encrypted proprietary' but I'm damned if I can see it. Dislike.

(Oh and focus isn't such a big deal for me: stills AF glass and their motors don't have the precision, speed, or repeatability needed for true cinema focus pulling IMHO, for all that Jacek has been very clever with his gizmo )

Mike

Question is how repeatable is the rack focus. When I tested with canon 35 and 85 L after cycling about 5 times the focus points drifted. A discussion with the engineers at Lockcircle advised me that this might be unfixable. Thus my little experiment with electronic lenses ended. The whole thing is disappointing. But the RT motion follow focus kit is not.

Rack focus will repeat all day long with both of those lenses... so long as the engineer that designed the system really knows how to talk to the lens... because he, and his team, put thousands of man-hours into learning how to talk to the lenses...

I know this is what it takes, and I know this is possible, because Birger is the only company ever to achieve this in a commercial product, with a wide cross section of canon lenses. Look around for reviews on the web from users that have actually used one of our systems, and see what they have to say. I know the optitek system works quite well. Try it. Then take the lens (or lens cap) off, and you will see how I know.

Not wanting to offend anyone, but I will say two things:

1) I can confirm what Erik says as we used Birger systems on a number of RedOnes and it was quite successful

and

2) as to why third party companies have not stepped in more: Jacek has done much of what you want - and you also have to remember or look into the history of how difficult Red made it for both third party outfits AND end users to use other lens solutions - so for the most part it hasn't been worth those "small innovative electronics outfits" risking the time and energy to develop these things with the significant possibility of being thwarted in the end.

 

[Les Dittert]

The Redmote signaling is not encrypted. Yet.

 

[Jacek Zakowicz]

The Redmote signaling is not encrypted. Yet.

WiFi won't work for focus pulling- it was not meant for such apps...

 

[James McLellan]

Rack focus will repeat all day long with both of those lenses... so long as the engineer that designed the system really knows how to talk to the lens... because he, and his team, put thousands of man-hours into learning how to talk to the lenses...

I know this is what it takes, and I know this is possible, because Birger is the only company ever to achieve this in a commercial product, with a wide cross section of canon lenses. Look around for reviews on the web from users that have actually used one of our systems, and see what they have to say. I know the optitek system works quite well. Try it. Then take the lens (or lens cap) off, and you will see how I know.

I certainly was not saying the Optitron or Birger drifted but definitely the rack focus function on the Epic does. I will admit I am not finished figuring out what mount solution is for me yet. Right now there is a lot of stuff on the table, speed booster, ND/motion mount and electronic FF control. I weigh this stuff regularly. Unfortunately I only had five minutes at NAB to play with the Optitron and Jacek was not around. Too bad we did not talk Jacek.

I am still quite confused at the Birger thing. I checked their website a lot some time ago and it looked pretty dormant. Now although I have gone with RT Motion I do believe the wireless stills solution will take over eventually. But how long will it take?

 

[Maik Müller]

Right now there is a lot of stuff on the table, speed booster, ND/motion mount and electronic FF control.

Speed booster? Is there a speed booster mount in the works? Did i miss something?

 

[Nick Timmons]

I've had the Optitek Optitron kit on order for a couple months now through Abel Cine NY, and I've got the mount, but the hand unit is still MIA. Looking forward to testing it, as I bought it sight unseen.
Jacek, if you could get a demo unit, either for the F5/55 or Epic into Abel, I guarantee you that you'd have more orders than you know what to do with...
If it works as advertised, it will replace the standard Red EF mount on many, many shoots.

 

[Jason Beckwith]

Speed booster? Is there a speed booster mount in the works? Did i miss something?

Yeah!

What's that all about!?!

(Good catch!)

 

[Nook Kim]

Speaking of controlling many things on camera including focus.. How's this sound?

http://www.kickstarter.com/projects...ze-your-brain-fitness-and-per?ref=most-funded

 

[Mike 'Fireman' Ross]

2) as to why third party companies have not stepped in more: Jacek has done much of what you want - and you also have to remember or look into the history of how difficult Red made it for both third party outfits AND end users to use other lens solutions - so for the most part it hasn't been worth those "small innovative electronics outfits" risking the time and energy to develop these things with the significant possibility of being thwarted in the end.

And that is precisely my point: why would RDC ever want to 'thwart' people making things like this? The margin on things like Redmote can't be worth the hassle of locking it up; I don't believe that.

Open is always best, unless there's a compelling argument to go closed.

R3D and wavelet compression… that's the crown jewels, that's the real wizardry. That's something you DO want to keep closed, licensing it to those few companies that can do vital things with it - Adobe, Apple, etc.

How to talk to and control the camera - Redmote stuff etc. - that's the equivalent of expansion slots. That's something you WANT to be as open as possible, so people come to the table with as many solutions as possible - alternative means of controlling the camera... redmotes to work with underwater housings, solutions tailored for drones, environmental housings for extreme conditions, various flavours of redmote apps for Android & iOS, dedicated follow focus units… all that kind of stuff. Having that kind of ecosystem is a big plus, a key differentiator in the marketplace and something I would love to see.

Same goes for rear modules, I might add. That's an interface crying out to be used and innovated on.

I've never built a serious company up and run it what do I know? But I have had a good worms eye view of many similar issues and debates in the IT business, and I have a good idea of the answers.

Mike

 

[Neil Cronin]

And that is precisely my point: why would RDC ever want to 'thwart' people making things like this? The margin on things like Redmote can't be worth the hassle of locking it up; I don't believe that.

Open is always best, unless there's a compelling argument to go closed.

R3D and wavelet compression… that's the crown jewels, that's the real wizardry. That's something you DO want to keep closed, licensing it to those few companies that can do vital things with it - Adobe, Apple, etc.

How to talk to and control the camera - Redmote stuff etc. - that's the equivalent of expansion slots. That's something you WANT to be as open as possible, so people come to the table with as many solutions as possible - alternative means of controlling the camera... redmotes to work with underwater housings, solutions tailored for drones, environmental housings for extreme conditions, various flavours of redmote apps for Android & iOS, dedicated follow focus units… all that kind of stuff. Having that kind of ecosystem is a big plus, a key differentiator in the marketplace and something I would love to see.

Same goes for rear modules, I might add. That's an interface crying out to be used and innovated on.

I've never built a serious company up and run it what do I know? But I have had a good worms eye view of many similar issues and debates in the IT business, and I have a good idea of the answers.

Mike

The effort required to support a published protocol/api may not be worth it. Many tech organizations are either indifferent to third parties' needs, or make a minimal effort to "thwart" add-ons or modules. Not out of spite or greed, but simply because it allows them to move forward faster with less baggage.

Even the "encrypted" media can't really be truly encrypted (Q: who has the keys? A: everybody), it must just be a minimal obfuscation to create a barrier to third parties to mitigate people depending upon tools that Red would either have to support forever, or seem like the bad guy who is always breaking everything with every software update. I'm fairly certain that a dedicated team could play back r3d footage and modify the metadata pretty easily. This "encryption" is just the smallest speed bump possible that clearly states to third parties, "you are very far off the reservation here."

I could be wrong and there could be other incentives at play here. I certainly do think it would be cool to see the innovative stuff that can't exist in the current scenario, but we don't know if, in the end, we are better or worse off on balance with the way things are today.