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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Why no 1080 as shooting ratio

S

Simon N

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Can anyone explain why with all the options offered i.e. 4k @ 16: 2.1 3k 2k etc.. why there isn't an option to shoot straight 1920x1080 in the menu. as everthing is 0's & 1's , wouldn't it be easy enough to offer this?
 
If you don't have something constructive to say..... some clients want to know why they can't do it
 
When 2k gets debayered in RedCine or FCP, it ends up being around 1080p. So if they started off with 1080, you'd end up with something lower.

The best thing to do is to shoot quad HD which will allow for easy downconverts to 1080p.
 
The best image is obtained by shooting 4K and downrezing to 1080p. There is inherent image loss during debayer. Shooting 1080p and then debayering would lead to less than stellar results. Oversampling at 4k and then "attenuating" to 1080p makes the sharpest possible image.

So the simple answer is: there's no 1080p option because 4k>1080p looks SO much better.
 
Simon N said:
If you don't have something constructive to say..... some clients want to know why they can't do it
Click to expand...

Aw come on. He was joking, not trying to deconstruct.
Anyway, the sensor is such that the photosite's resolution is not the real image resolution. Its complicated, but basically in order to get top notch 1080, you shoot QuadHD and downconvert. The whole 'raw' part of shooting red means that you can't have the camera transforming the file, or else you loose info.

If you got a RED, you got it because this is the process you were aspiring to, not the cheapo in cam conversions that limit you in post.
 
1920 x 1080

1920 x 1080

Can anyone explain why with all the options offered i.e. 4k @ 16: 2.1 3k 2k etc.. why there isn't an option to shoot straight 1920x1080 in the menu. as everthing is 0's & 1's , wouldn't it be easy enough to offer this?
Click to expand...

For a 1920 x 1080 deliverable its best to shoot 4K HD.... then in post a 2:1 downconversion gives you exactly 1920 x 1080 pixels.

we certainly COULD offer 1920 x 1080 RAW if there was a significant demand for it, but 4K HD will give you far superior image quality results....
 
Also you can reposition frames a lot without losing apparent image quality if you shoot 4K HD and finish 1080p. Shoot 1080p native and you lose that advantage.

Noah
 
I understand all that but couldn't answer the true difference between 2k & HD - the question was posed to my by a client because their post house doesn't want 4K.

When I explained the benefits of shooting 4K they were adamant they wanted to shoot in "HD - NOT 2k or 4K" which when you try to explain to them that 2k is "technically" close to HD then for them it became a grey area as to the difference between the two. Which is why I came here !
 
Well if you deliver them ProRes 1080p HD clips then what difference does it make what they were technically shot at? You can easily set this up in REDrushes as an overnight process. If the downconversion happens in the camera or in post, it's still the same ultimate result. They're just getting double the apparent resolution for free.

If you want to compare 2K to HD. RED 2K is 2048x1152, 1080p HD is 1920x1080. But you can easily derive 1080 with much better image sharpness by starting from 4K HD mode, 3840x2160 divides mathematically perfectly in post to 1920x1080. Just tell the client you will deliver the exact spec they need and they don't worry about the image capture format. Heck you can even give them 1080p on HDCAM tapes if they really insist. Starting from a 4K negative, you can basically give them anything, If they still don't get it, maybe not a client you want?

Noah
 
1080p

1080p

Yeah, if you told them that you were shooting a on 35 mm with telecine to 1080p HD would they care?

Because that's effectively what you are doing by shooting 4K HD and running it via REDAlert! or REDCINE .....
 
They are driven by their post house - and the rushes are going straight there rather than me have a chance to do anything about them in the meantime otherwise I probably wouldn't have posed the question and just done the conversion myself.

If I ignore clients request and just do 4kHD version then who's to say post won't kick up a fuss because it hasn't been delivered in a version they are comfortable with?
 
You have to remember that the Red camera system operates in a RAW pixel space. This means that you record each photosite as a pixel. In a non-RAW (but still professional) camera system the sensor oversamples with more pixels than are recorded and it is down-converted in camera to whatever the delivery format is (eg. 1080p). That can represent a workflow advantage if your workflow is more inclined towards speed than flexibility and quality, and you don't have a red rocket (which would negate the speed argument).

If the post house is narked by getting 4k HD – which is designed to match perfectly for a 1080p debayer – instead of 1080p, then they are either operating in a live TV environment or are not worth their salt. Fact.
 
Stuart is completely right obviously. I'd say that the post house is just a little silly if they can't download REDCine and convert it. Besides, they are still getting R3D files....the bigger question can they work with R3D, what I'm hearing is they can't from this.
 
Simon N said:
They are driven by their post house - and the rushes are going straight there rather than me have a chance to do anything about them in the meantime otherwise I probably wouldn't have posed the question and just done the conversion myself.

If I ignore clients request and just do 4kHD version then who's to say post won't kick up a fuss because it hasn't been delivered in a version they are comfortable with?
Click to expand...

Then tell them to shoot with something other than Red. If they refuse to shoot 4k HD and scale down, then they probably don't see the benefit in the camera at all.
 
Perhaps this is a communication problem? Have you spoken to the post house personally?
 
Agree with Stefan. I get a lot of calls that start out as "directions" and just by talking to them end up as solutions.

Educate them. There is so much incorrect info about Red and the process out there it becomes very frustrating.

Use Stuart's film analogy, this works the best. Once they realize this is closer to the film world than video world, they will respect the process much more. Otherwise they think they are getting a leg up by insulting the system - "What, it can't even do HD?"

Remain perfectly calm and talk about the workflow, and how much it improves on a film workflow in both time and cost. Tell them about the Red Rocket and suggest the post house invest in one if they want to keep up with the times.

It's up to us to show them the way it works.
 
Simon N said:
They are driven by their post house - and the rushes are going straight there rather than me have a chance to do anything about them in the meantime otherwise I probably wouldn't have posed the question and just done the conversion myself.

If I ignore clients request and just do 4kHD version then who's to say post won't kick up a fuss because it hasn't been delivered in a version they are comfortable with?
Click to expand...

that's kind of a catch-22 for you then isn't it. If the post house insists on having the 'rushes' right out of the camera they're going to be getting 4K R3D files that it sounds like they have no clue how to handle. Though I have to say a post house in September 2009 that hasn't touched RED footage yet is a post house I want to know about so I can avoid it like the plague.

If the client is so dead set on going with this particular post house with immediate drop off from set without you handling the rushes in a way the post house can actually deal with first then they obviously don't want to shoot RED. They want to shoot a different camera and have no clue what it is you're offering them.

Noah
 
Zakaree Sandberg said:
sounds like the post house has NO idea what they are doing..
shoot a different camera.
Click to expand...

Choose a different post house.

:Yawn:

Fortunately future cameras will have 1080P scaled... I just wonder how many people from video background (specially these that twist their noses to 4K) will just shoot this and ignore the RAW format and its benefits.
 
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