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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Why lower your rates and equipment down to nothing just to kill the industry

This is the compromise have expensive camera's with a semi "closed' market or have cheaper cameras and a wide open market. What's your poison ?
 
Its really hard when you spend $90,000+ on your gear and then the market gets SO OVER SATURATED because the same camera body you have was sold for $4000.00 and everyone bought them up. Not complaining, just saying it's a hard market for people renting because so many people have them. I'm to the point now though that people are calling me for me, not my gear, for the most part.


Its tough though. You have to have something "extra" either lower rates, or something others dont have and offer. And this is as much our fault in the industry as camera owners, as it is the fault of red lowing prices (which is a good thing as well) and as much a fault of producers taking the cheap way out rather than the quality way out. It's a hard place to be right now.
 
Björn Benckert said:
I agree with George, and I must say I'm a bit chocked to read all your ranting here.

I been in this industry long enough to have seen people go trough this whole cycle. Most starting out as unpaid production assistants, then working around the camera, getting to DP their first shitty music videos without payment using borrowed gear, then going towards commercial work with low or no charge at first. Some of these guys are now shooting hollywood features and high end commercials with a good month salary for every day on set.

To me that is all fair.

But the funny thing is, that now some of these guys actually has the stomach to lean back, in all of their gained success, and rant about the new young guys that actually are willing to take up work for little or no money. And they think it's crazy that these youngsters even throw in their newly bought camera into free deals.... Like they would not have done so when they where young.

It's quite simple. Today there is a lot of people that can buy an epic or scarlet or other camera. The supply is far higher than the demand. I do not know a single RED camera that is out working full time.

From looking at the rental market, I do not really see a great future, it's very much a race that will hit the floor pretty soon. Far to many people over invested in tech that they will not make the money back from as the turnaround times are getting much much shorter and prices are going down which means that there is more people that can consider to invest.

So I think it's vice not to waste energy on ranting about this, see it for what it is it's an industry that is changing rapidly. Most of you where probably wishing for this change back when you where young an tried to get in.
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What has changed is that back in the day there was no gear involved in the equation. You gave your time for free. You didn't need to first raise $35 000, buy gear, then work for free or near free and include free gear.

The new order gives rich trust fund kids a hugely unfair advantage.
 
Bing Bailey said:
only on planet film is $950 a day considered some kind of slave wage. every other craft or job people would kill to make that kind of money. I don't think filmmakers work harder than nurses but nurses sure as hell don't make $950 a day. sure nurses don't buy equipment but even so thats a lot of money - I'm sure the people who shot film felt the same way about these dp's with their reds coming in and getting jobs that were going to shoot film but are now shooting red because its cheaper and still high quality. you did it to them and now a new group is doing it to you. it doesn't stop.

everything is getting cheaper because the revenue possibility for projects is in the toilet so everything has to come down in price or not be made at all. the same happened in the music business. lots of studios got stuck with 100's of thousands invested in equipment and got kicked in the nuts by small studios with pro tools. the next wave of people will do it to with their black magic cameras. because most people are happy with good enough. a producers job is the get the best deals they can without sacrificing too much quality. producers have to work with lower budgets now than they ever have before. it runs down hill. if a producer gets someone who doesn't do a good job they won't be hired for much after
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$950 a day is a lot if you make that every day. If you make that 2 days a month (as you often do in planet film) it's below the poverty line. On top of that, this guy had to first spend 100K or so (maybe more) to get his package together. SO... If you have to spend 100K to make $425 a week, thats' not a happy planet.
 
ed ng said:
Hey Ryan, I am not asking for anything illegal or price fixing, it was never stated that way. I would just simply like to have competitive pricing across the board from operator rates to camera rates. Yes, there are many camera's all over the world and everyone has to make a living but it is just bad in my opinion.
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From a filmmaker standpoint I have no sympathy for undercut rental houses or people getting low rates for renting their gear. Many of us came here to make film, not a buck.
What you are talking about is in fact competitive pricing.
I for one think it's great that the price to make art has come down and no longer remains in the hands of only those who can afford to buy and process film.

THIS THREAD BELONGS ON THE RENTAL GROUP PAGE.
 
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A veteran of the business once told me, "the gear doesn't know if its working" and I've always remembered that phrase. He invested in equipment to support him making great images, which was what we were hiring him for. He would often bring along an extra monitor or other piece of equipment we couldn't afford to add to the budget because he knew it would make it easier for him or make the day go more smoothly.

In the end, you will make money from your own talent, not the equipment you own. We buy gear if we think we need it to do your job and have the work to support it. Or we sometimes buy gear because we want to use it and think it will make our work more rewarding, but those purchases are more along the lines of professional development than an investment.

You'll never control other people's pricing, so just focus on your own product. Buying a camera without the existing business to support it is a huge risk. You are better off investing in kittens and filming them doing cute things with your smart phone to post on YouTube. Then you can just sit back and soak up all that tasty ad revenue.
 
Walter R said:
You'll never control other people's pricing, so just focus on your own product. Buying a camera without the existing business to support it is a huge risk. You are better off investing in kittens and filming them doing cute things with your smart phone to post on YouTube.
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Sound advice.
 
Walter R said:
You'll never control other people's pricing, so just focus on your own product. Buying a camera without the existing business to support it is a huge risk. You are better off investing in kittens and filming them doing cute things with your smart phone to post on YouTube. Then you can just sit back and soak up all that tasty ad revenue.
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Sad but true
 
Ben Scott said:
Tis a blow, but somehow I guess I'll have to find the strength to carry on knowing I've bored you.

Hopefully the thread will solder on without your sterling efforts so far. It IS a ridiculous notion that getting better at what I do, something i strive to do every day of my working life, will suddenly garner a higher fee without a shift in other aspects of the industry.

I earn my regular proper rates from other clients but I genuinely feel the main problem is both the race to the bottom by my peers, plus the seemingly increasing indifference to poorer quality work from my clients or previous clients.

There's no problem with doing a job for free or for cheap but the client needs to give you something worth that regular rate to you, and they need to be made aware of how much it would actually cost.
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Amen, brother. Amen. It really is a race to the bottom out there.
Remember, there is a real world, not just a film world. Someday you may want to own your home without a mortgage. Someday you will be too old to lift cases, cameras, and lights. Someday you may want to send your kids or grandkids to college. Much of that will be beyond your grasp if you lowball.
The film industry used to be an elite endeavour, requiring years of study, apprenticeship, and hard work. Inattention, mistakes, and sloppy work was not tolerated, and those folks were generally weeded out. Now it's almost as if those traits are celebrated. And everyone has a camera. No big deal. How cheap do you want it?
Cheers,
Harry
 
its no longer viable to own and rent cameras..


so i dont...


but I just recently raised my personal rates and am getting the rates i ask for..

so the guys digging their graves arent really messing with my business... they are just going to be known as the low budget guys.. I wouldnt want to live in that world...
 
hehe, love those funny cat vidoes!

Walter R said:
Buying a camera without the existing business to support it is a huge risk. You are better off investing in kittens and filming them doing cute things with your smart phone to post on YouTube. Then you can just sit back and soak up all that tasty ad revenue.
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Harry Clark said:
Amen, brother. Amen. It really is a race to the bottom out there.
Remember, there is a real world, not just a film world. Someday you may want to own your home without a mortgage. Someday you will be too old to lift cases, cameras, and lights. Someday you may want to send your kids or grandkids to college. Much of that will be beyond your grasp if you lowball.
The film industry used to be an elite endeavour, requiring years of study, apprenticeship, and hard work. Inattention, mistakes, and sloppy work was not tolerated, and those folks were generally weeded out. Now it's almost as if those traits are celebrated. And everyone has a camera. No big deal. How cheap do you want it?
Cheers,
Harry
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This is true, but the fact is that the definition of filmmaker has changed. There are a lot of shooters with cameras out there, but to enter the film industry at an elite level the path is still just as difficult requiring years of work NOT just buying or renting a camera for cheap. If you work as a union camera operator, AC DP etc you will generally make great rates. Owning a camera to rent out is not a skilled position that has ever taken years to get into, you simply have to fork over some money to buy a camera.
 
Eric M Hurt said:
This is true, but the fact is that the definition of filmmaker has changed. There are a lot of shooters with cameras out there, but to enter the film industry at an elite level the path is still just as difficult requiring years of work NOT just buying or renting a camera for cheap. If you work as a union camera operator, AC DP etc you will generally make great rates. Owning a camera to rent out is not a skilled position that has ever taken years to get into, you simply have to fork over some money to buy a camera.
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Yes, but in the old days owning gear was the icing on the cake. And often the gear would DOUBLE your income, or more. And in order to rent the gear, you had to be an established person, a known entity. Now it has become a way to become established. And it wasn't simply "forking over some money", you had to use your own money that took years to save, take a risk, and put it down on gear. And then it was bigger money (although you didn't throw the gear into a dumpster after 18 months like now) Also, there were no specialty camera lease-to-buy/ financing firms. It was life savings/ credit card zero interest convenience check action. It was f-ing hard!
I am a union operator and DP, and yes, you can make "great rates". But if you're like me, you are constantly doing favors, shooting little things, and taking on projects that are more interesting than profitable. Plus as a freelancer, there are lots of uncompensated down days where you meet with people, try to expand your network, and plain old days off. So the "great rates" from "planet film" add up to a middle class (maybe) income. The gear used to help smooth over those slow times. Now you are simply expected to own cameras.
Yes, if you give away the gear and hold to your "great rates" on "planet film" you'll have a life. But achieving some of the financial goals I spoke of in my earlier post? It's much harder when everyone is happy at a lower middle class of income. The lowballers drag everyone down. The other answer is to work every day. On episodic TV, for instance. I know some of those folks. 80-100 hours a week for 17 weeks straight times 20 years, and yes then you can retire. But don't be surprised if, at the end of that, you are divorced with no friends except for those in the film business. Of course most people that I know float somewhere in the middle, doing some commercial work, some feature work, and some episodic. It's a living.
Unfortunately, as others have pointed out, at the bottom third of the business (soon to be the bottom half and then eventually, the bottom four fifths or more) producers will always find SOMEONE wiling to give it a go at the lowest rates.
I'm sure everyone here, me included, will find their own path. But the original poster, and others who have lamented the lowballers and the crowding of our business, are absolutely correct.
Cheers,
Harry
 
I think the main complaint of this thread is now that film is becoming more popular and more accessible, it is becoming increasingly susceptible to forces that have always impacted business. Supply and Demand is a theory they teach in business schools for a reason. What is happening in the film business is that now that cameras like the 5D have been available for very little money (especially used) people are taking a greater interest in film making and are learning a lot on their own before even before officially entering the industry. They are high school and college kids, and hobbyist. They are learning, and are willing to work for producers for less money in order to learn or supplement their income. Over time they want to be more serious about it so they buy a Scarlet or an Epic. Time goes by and now the market is flooded between three categories: Students with Professional Gear, Hobbyists with Professional Gear, and Professionals with Professional Gear.

Now for many productions, your typical student or hobbyist might do an ok job. There might be many problems with it, but to the end client, that person would never be able to tell the difference unless they got to see it directly next to something more professional, and they don't get that opportunity. The problem becomes when the client wants to pay $1000 for a product, and a professional comes in and says, you know I have to pay people, I have to recoupe the investment on my gear and I need to make a profit as well. However, to the student they see "wow, I bought a scarlet for $20,000 and they are willing to give me $1,000 for a days worth of shooting and a few hours of editing for a 10 minute video? I only need to do 20 videos and I'm making a profit! I'm in!" And that reduces what producers are willing to pay. There will still be a lot of high end clients who know that a video costs a lot of money and are willing to pay for it, but those are in short supply so professionals are reducing the amount of profit they are willing to take as well in order to get the client.

Because in the end, I think a lot of people that quote a project to make $1000 profit for a days work, would be willing to make $500 profit for a days work rather than sit around and do nothing that day. The mindset that "something is better than nothing" is true, and that is what is causing the race to the bottom people are so concerned about. Eventually hobbyist will get tired, students will become professionals, and you would think there would be a leveling out of prices again in the future, but there will always be new students and there will always be more hobbyist, so this is the new pricing model of our industry and I think its best to try and figure out how you will make yourself stand out and make the money you want, than being nostalgic and trying to get the good old days back, they likely never will.
 
Louis Maddalena said:
I think the main complaint of this thread is now that film is becoming more popular and more accessible, it is becoming increasingly susceptible to forces that have always impacted business. Supply and Demand is a theory they teach in business schools for a reason. What is happening in the film business is that now that cameras like the 5D have been available for very little money (especially used) people are taking a greater interest in film making and are learning a lot on their own before even before officially entering the industry. They are high school and college kids, and hobbyist. They are learning, and are willing to work for producers for less money in order to learn or supplement their income.
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This is why the timing of lawsuits filed by unpaid "interns" is interesting. There is an increasing amount of activity in this area precisely for the reasons you mention. Hopefully the courts can help keep the market out of the shit as these things get sorted out.

Now for many productions, your typical student or hobbyist might do an ok job. There might be many problems with it, but to the end client, that person would never be able to tell the difference unless they got to see it directly next to something more professional, and they don't get that opportunity. The problem becomes when the client wants to pay $1000 for a product, and a professional comes in and says, you know I have to pay people, I have to recoupe the investment on my gear and I need to make a profit as well. However, to the student they see "wow, I bought a scarlet for $20,000 and they are willing to give me $1,000 for a days worth of shooting and a few hours of editing for a 10 minute video? I only need to do 20 videos and I'm making a profit! I'm in!" And that reduces what producers are willing to pay. There will still be a lot of high end clients who know that a video costs a lot of money and are willing to pay for it, but those are in short supply so professionals are reducing the amount of profit they are willing to take as well in order to get the client.
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I would caution against underestimating the client. Further, when an uneducated client gets together with an inexperienced production person, money tends to go down the flush. That is one major reason why the rates in this area are so low. Even the uneducated clients are not stupid, and they are being cautious with their money.

For a low end, or semi professional market to really emerge, a larger number of new professionals are really going to have to prove their worth. Many are getting close I think, and the landscape may be about to explode. The accessibility of the tools is helping to make this possible, but I would point out that this didn't start with Red or DSLRs. It started with DV.

The upside as I see it is that the demand for industrials is likewise about to explode online, and the thing that I see holding it back is supply. As this new entry level pro, or low level production space comes into it's own and the market sorts itself out, I think it will go absolutely thermo nuclear. Keep improving those technical and business skills folks. Things are about to get interesting if only we do.

All of this wanders a bit off topic. Sorry about that. I think this guy was close to nailing it.

Walter R said:
Buying a camera without the existing business to support it is a huge risk.
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I would just add that getting into the camera rental business when you don't have a fundamental understanding of the camera rental business or even consider basic principles of supply and demand is the bigger risk.
 
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Scott Crawley said:
I would just add that getting into the camera rental business when you don't have a fundamental understanding of the camera rental business or even consider basic principles of supply and demand is the bigger risk.
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Absolutely. It is just like the people you see on shows like Restaurant Impossible on the Food Network. They love food and owning a restaurant seemed pretty awesome, so they took their life savings and opened a restaurant or bought an existing one. Whoops!

The changing pricing of talent and equipment isn't a phase that will somehow work itself out. It is a new reality. Let's face it, a lot of people want to be in this business. Need an actor for free tomorrow? I bet you can find one. Are they any good... The same thing is happening on the other side of the lens. The high price of equipment used to be a barrier to entry and kept the supply of people able to provide top quality equipment to a minimum, but for better (my view) or worse that barrier is gone. Sure, from a selfish point of view I would like to think the business will somehow stabilize, but there is nothing to stop the influx of dreamers willing to work for free or cheap to try to break in. Some will have talent and will create great things. A whole lot more will disappoint clients and put downward pressure on prices. And there will probably be quite a few willing to wait tables and rent their Epics out through Craigslist on the side while living at home with their mom and dad. At least until their parents tell them to get a "real job" and kick them out.

As Louis wisely points out, this is the reality, so we all need to figure out how to continue providing enough value to our clients that we can make a living wage. We can be angry at the rain, but we can choose to either grab an umbrella and head out into it or just stay home. We certainly can't stop it. Thanks to Red at least we have a pretty awesome umbrella.
 
There has always been and ever will be a flow of people moving to LA looking to break in, all of them willing to work for little or nothing in order to make it happen. That is not the factor in the equation that has changed. That may actually be the only constant.

As a side note; I have heard more than one economist say that free markets do tend to work themselves out. :-)
 
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