Why is the Helium sensor easier to manufacture than the Dragon sensor?

[Rakesh Malik]

I'm aware of that, however, when a company as large as Canon creates a working demo they are pretty capable of launching it as a product if the cost and demand is practical.

A working demo doesn't need to be reliable or repeatable. A product does.

Technically theres no indication that any of the sensor brands you mentioned can manufacture an 8K sensor. On the other hand Canon demonstrated a working prototype while all the other brands have shown NOTHING.

That means nothing, since if they were under NDA they would have said nothing. That said, CMOSIS has an 8K sensor on the market now. If they can do it, then I'd guess that so can everyone else.

But let's be serious. The Helium sensor is a Super 35 sensor. It's 8K. It has lower noise at higher ISO than Dragon. The only companies who have pulled that off so far have done it using back illumination. There are two companies who have back illuminated sensors on the market today that are publicly known.

I never mentioned that Canon manufactured Dragon sensors.

No one else did either.

Also I highly doubt Canon or anyone else would be running around telling people that they've manufactured sensors for a competing brand. Everyone is likely under a strict NDA.

*BTW Canon is entering the 3rd party sensor business within the next 2 yrs. https://petapixel.com/2016/09/01/canon-sell-cmos-sensors-companies-first-time/

Yes, they most likely are. But that article implies that there's at best a miniscule possibility that Canon is Red's sensor provider.

But let's be serious... if Canon actually COULD make an 8K sensor in volume, why would Canon release a 4K camera as its new flagship at pretty much the same time that Red is releasing an 8K camera?

 

[Rakesh Malik]

I thought 5D was an 8k+ sensor / more pixels than helium, is it not?
Sure it´s not recording the amount of frames but it still kind of proves that canon has a source for quite capable sensors, no?

It doesn't really prove anything of significance, since Sony has been offering the same resolution for close to three years now as well.

 

[Todd T]

Back to the OP question, there is no way to avoid wafer defects during the maufacture of the chips. So, the larger the chip, or in this case the sensor, the higher the probability that it will contain a defect that makes it unusable.

The diagram below is an example of yields from 40mm, 20mm and 10mm squares;

For comparison, VV is about 41x22mm, Dragon 6k - 31x16mm, Scarlet-W 26x14mm, Raven - 23x12mm

 

[Michael Tiemann]

Back to the OP question, there is no way to avoid wafer defects during the maufacture of the chips. So, the larger the chip, or in this case the sensor, the higher the probability that it will contain a defect that makes it unusable.

The diagram below is an example of yields from 40mm, 20mm and 10mm squares;

For comparison, VV is about 41x22mm, Dragon 6k - 31x16mm, Scarlet-W 26x14mm, Raven - 23x12mm

Um...the OP's OQ was "Would be fascinated to know what it is about the Dragon sensor that even after a few years in production is such a challenge compared to the newer Helium design." Yes wafer defects are a problem that scales as you say it does, but numerous companies have offered FF35 sensors for years, not to mention MF-sized sensors from Phase One, Hasselblad, Fuji, etc. I'm sure that nobody is more surprised than RED that VV yields are as low as they are, given how high the yields are for so many other designs. The statistics of wafer defects alone don't adequately explain the problem.

 

[Todd T]

The production problems come from the fact that the existing Dragon fabrication lines (which are several years old now) has grown from producing 6K chips to also producing VV, Scarlet-w, and Raven. Normally, each of these sizes are done in batches, (e.g. one month 6K, one month VV, one month Raven) because all of the equipment in the assembly and testing line must be set-up and calibrated for each particular chip. So out of that one month slot, at least one week is dedicated to re-configuring and testing the line.

The helium line is newer, so not only does it benefit from the normal progress of technology to be more efficient, it is working with different chip technology and production methods as well. This line is currently dedicated to only producing 8K chips, so it is not affected by having to retool between sensor sizes, so production, assembly, and testing is essentially a continuous process.

There hasn't been a real problem with the manufacture of Dragons per se, the production is overwhelmed by demand, and that is exacerbated by switching the lines for various chip production.

Practically though, how many cameras are Phase One, Hasselblad, Fuji, etc., producing compared to RED?

 

[Ben Scott]

Cool.

 

[emil_h]

A working demo doesn't need to be reliable or repeatable. A product does.

Once again you're totally missing my point. Canon proved they can make a functioning 8K sensor that's it. I'm not talking about the entire camera, just the sensor.

That means nothing, since if they were under NDA they would have said nothing. That said, CMOSIS has an 8K sensor on the market now. If they can do it, then I'd guess that so can everyone else.

But let's be serious. The Helium sensor is a Super 35 sensor. It's 8K. It has lower noise at higher ISO than Dragon. The only companies who have pulled that off so far have done it using back illumination. There are two companies who have back illuminated sensors on the market today that are publicly known.

CMOSIS has an 8K sensor that they announced about 6 months after Canon showed a working prototype. Exactly, so if Canon did manufacture it they won't say anything.

No one else did either.

Umm yes you implied that I said that

On top of that, I have yet to see any evidence of a Canon sensor that could match the Helium and Dragon dynamic range.

Yes, they most likely are. But that article implies that there's at best a miniscule possibility that Canon is Red's sensor provider.

But let's be serious... if Canon actually COULD make an 8K sensor in volume, why would Canon release a 4K camera as its new flagship at pretty much the same time that Red is releasing an 8K camera?

Simple answer; Canon is capable of manufacturing an 8K sensor but none of their cameras have the processing power to utilize it.

 

[Rakesh Malik]

Once again you're totally missing my point. Canon proved they can make a functioning 8K sensor that's it. I'm not talking about the entire camera, just the sensor.

Actually, it doesn't, because that could have been nothing more than a test run. We have no idea as to whether or not Canon can make those sensors in any volume. It could be the only working sensor in its batch. Qualifying the sensor and ramping its production up could take six months to a year.

CMOSIS has an 8K sensor that they announced about 6 months after Canon showed a working prototype. Exactly, so if Canon did manufacture it they won't say anything.

Until Canon decides that it's time to make an 8K camera, which I suspect isn't going to be this year since it just announced the global shutter option for the C700.

Simple answer; Canon is capable of manufacturing an 8K sensor but none of their cameras have the processing power to utilize it.

You keep saying that, but you're still basing that on a demo prototype that could for all we know be the working 8K sensor that Canon has made so far.

I'm not saying that that's the case, but there's no evidence out there to suggest that Canon can make enough of them to sell them to anyone yet.

 

[emil_h]

I'm not saying that that's the case, but there's no evidence out there to suggest that Canon can make enough of them to sell them to anyone yet.

This entire thread is based on guessing who is most likely the sensor manufacturer. lol obviously there isn't any evidence that Canon or anyone else has the ability and/or is currently making these sensors.

 

[Rakesh Malik]

This entire thread is based on guessing who is most likely the sensor manufacturer. lol obviously there isn't any evidence that Canon or anyone else has the ability and/or is currently making these sensors.

Yes, that's precisely what I said in the first place.

 

[L. Langer]

Canon makes equipment for semi-conductor manufacturing. Apart from a fab they operate for specific uses, they leave sensor manufacturing to other companies.

 

[Kemalettin Sert]

Teledyne,Forza Silicon or Cmosis. who makes the helium and dragon vv sensors?

 

[David J. Buchanan]

My guess was that it was Sony because they told me they were an open source technology when it came to sensors. Too bad they don't just stack the Dragon sensor like Alexa 65.

 

[Ben Scott]

That doesn't make any sense. How is that open source?