Why is STORY so hard for me ... how do you deal with it?

[PatrickFaith]

This article just now on NFS made me remember your interesting post.
http://nofilmschool.com/2015/08/comic-aritst-ty-templetons-blunt-advice-tell-better-stories

He mentions skills over talent, one thing I have been really focused on(up'ing my skill) is really digging deep into the antagonist character and using that depth to build the story.

 

[Hal Long]

This is an interesting thread. For me, story has always been a blessing and a curse. Is there technique and technical skill to apply? Absolutely. Is it about technical skill and technique? Absolutely not. Having technical skill makes it easier to create a balanced, structured script, but the memorable stories and characters come from someplace deeper and are filtered through technique.


I like this last link to Ty Templeton. He taps into the same themes that Edison, Einstein, Gladwell and so many others have emphasized before: practice is everything. Call it 10,000 hours, genius being 10% inspiration and 90% perspiration, writing is rewriting or whatever you want. It always comes down to the same thing. If someone's not in practice and hasn't put in the time, then how can they expect fantastic results? Talent is overrated because it’s almost always requires perseverance and will to make a mark. I like determination better.


Patrick, you’re on track with developing stronger antagonists. Make them so strong they seem invincible and then your hero has a challenge. Forgive me if this sounds too pedantic, but keep the principles guiding your protagonist, antagonist and other characters always in the back of your mind. Robert McKee drills this pretty hard in his STORY books and his lectures. They’re great if you haven’t read them or seen one. It’s not just characters in conflict, but principles in conflict. If a consistent set of principles are in conflict throughout your story, that’s a good beginning.


Now, finding time to get into a writing mode between shoots? That’s the hardest challenge sometimes.

 

[Christoffer Glans]

This is an interesting thread. For me, story has always been a blessing and a curse. Is there technique and technical skill to apply? Absolutely. Is it about technical skill and technique? Absolutely not. Having technical skill makes it easier to create a balanced, structured script, but the memorable stories and characters come from someplace deeper and are filtered through technique.


I like this last link to Ty Templeton. He taps into the same themes that Edison, Einstein, Gladwell and so many others have emphasized before: practice is everything. Call it 10,000 hours, genius being 10% inspiration and 90% perspiration, writing is rewriting or whatever you want. It always comes down to the same thing. If someone's not in practice and hasn't put in the time, then how can they expect fantastic results? Talent is overrated because it’s almost always requires perseverance and will to make a mark. I like determination better.


Patrick, you’re on track with developing stronger antagonists. Make them so strong they seem invincible and then your hero has a challenge. Forgive me if this sounds too pedantic, but keep the principles guiding your protagonist, antagonist and other characters always in the back of your mind. Robert McKee drills this pretty hard in his STORY books and his lectures. They’re great if you haven’t read them or seen one. It’s not just characters in conflict, but principles in conflict. If a consistent set of principles are in conflict throughout your story, that’s a good beginning.


Now, finding time to get into a writing mode between shoots? That’s the hardest challenge sometimes.

The technique or craft is important in order to structure your talent to produce great stories. Dramatic structure is only unnecessary for people not understanding them. So in order to be able to practice the amount necessary to become an expert or a great storyteller you need to understand all types of dramatic structures. That knowledge can be learned and should be learned before the practice begins. Otherwise you will spend years inventing the wheel for yourself before the practice based on it actually begins.

But I wouldn't go as far as recommending reading Robert McKee or any other "guru". Perhaps Syd Field just to get to know all the terms you encounter while working, but most of these "gurus" actually block your way of understanding dramatic structure. It's really not that hard to get the basics down, every other theory is just that, a theory. Many of these "gurus" actually have tips that goes against each others theories, which leaves you in the middle trying to understand how to use it.

The only thing recommended is to read a lot of screenplays. I've heard this from so many actually working screenwriters (not gurus without any screenplay ever written). Learn the basics of the craft, how acts and conflict works, how you actually write a screenplay technically (no inner thoughts, clear descriptions etc.), then read a lot of screenplays, watch a lot of movies and write every day. Writing every day is the most important thing. Doesn't have to be a screenplay you work on, but writing anything. It's actually rewiring your brain to be able to do it better everyday when you do and that's why practice is everything.

 

[Joe D'Arcy]

... But I wouldn't go as far as recommending reading Robert McKee or any other "guru". Perhaps Syd Field just to get to know all the terms you encounter while working, but most of these "gurus" actually block your way of understanding dramatic structure. It's really not that hard to get the basics down, every other theory is just that, a theory. Many of these "gurus" actually have tips that goes against each others theories, which leaves you in the middle trying to understand how to use it....

Although Robert McKee's 'Story' is full of good info, I'm glad I wrote a few screenplays before I read it. Otherwise I may have been bogged down by the complexity of story structure. However, it is a great book and worth the read for any screenplay writer.

 

[Joe D'Arcy]

... But I wouldn't go as far as recommending reading Robert McKee or any other "guru". Perhaps Syd Field just to get to know all the terms you encounter while working, but most of these "gurus" actually block your way of understanding dramatic structure. It's really not that hard to get the basics down, every other theory is just that, a theory. Many of these "gurus" actually have tips that goes against each others theories, which leaves you in the middle trying to understand how to use it....

Although Robert McKee's 'Story' is full of good info, I'm glad I wrote a few screenplays before I read it. Otherwise I may have been bogged down by the complex examples of story structure - and not had the courage to write in the first place. However, it is a great book and worth the read for any screenplay writer.

 

[Christoffer Glans]

Even if his writing seems straight forward, he over complicates everything with a micro managing mentality of a fluid artform. Structure isn't that complicated, you could easily write a 50-100 page book about it all. After that it's all practice.
So almost every book about screenwriting tries to force a way of thinking that the author of the book have, not how to apply structure to the writing of your own. If you have a book about screenwriting, read the first two-three pages of every chapter instead of the whole book, that keeps the structure more simple.

 

[Elsie N]

I suppose storytelling has evolved into a trained skillset, but the very term "storyteller" takes me back to times when people sat around and one, maybe two people would tell one story after another. Some others may attempt to join in as storytellers but reactions from the group would soon let them know that they failed or perhaps partially succeeded in their attempt.

Those who were universally accepted as storytellers and were widely quoted, were ones who told the story in such a way that it was easy to follow by all levels of listeners and held their interest. The really good ones had people hanging on their every word.

I suppose they may have reached that level through practice and learning from others... or their own missteps. But I also think they had an innate sense of what made good storytelling.

So, is it possible to become a good storyteller through hard work and study? In today's world, probably. But I still think that to standout as a storyteller, even in today's acceptance of visual awe sans story, one has to have a sense of what will cause the jaded ones to stop and hear the roses.

 

[Hal Long]

The technique or craft is important in order to structure your talent to produce great stories. Dramatic structure is only unnecessary for people not understanding them. So in order to be able to practice the amount necessary to become an expert or a great storyteller you need to understand all types of dramatic structures. That knowledge can be learned and should be learned before the practice begins. Otherwise you will spend years inventing the wheel for yourself before the practice based on it actually begins.

Wow. That's out of context. Not sure that I or anyone posting recently said that dramatic structure is unimportant in any way. Just that it's one piece of the puzzle.

The only thing recommended is to read a lot of screenplays. I've heard this from so many actually working screenwriters (not gurus without any screenplay ever written).

Of course you read screenplays, just like you go see movies. There's practiced technique in most good films as well as thoughtful character, conflict and story development. To dismiss all popular screenwriting books and authors out of hand seems counterproductive to learning the craft, especially when many of the writer DID or do actually have solid careers in Hollywood. To name a few... McKee was a successful TV writer and consults on major projects. Snyder had several movies before he died (not my favorite movies, but studio films all the same) and Field's career goes back to TV and film in the 1970s. There are many more.

Writing every day is so important as Christopher pointed out. 10,000 hours. There aren't many short cuts.

 

[Les Hillis]

There aren't any short-cuts, but there are a hell of a lot of pit-falls. One of which is trying to write a story and ending up writing about writing stories instead. Not having a dig at this thread or at the 'how-to' books, just mentioning a trap I've fallen into myself in the past. It takes a lot of discipline to stay on track and do the writing and re-writing that's actually required to end up with a workable screenplay. Over-analyzing and theorizing can be just as deadly as not thinking critically enough about what you're writing.

Anyway, I find the subject fascinating, but it's a difficult one to discuss on internet forums like this. As amazing as it is (technologically-speaking), communicating via internet forums feels like speaking into tin-cans connected by a piece of string sometimes. Especially when discussing a subject as broad and multi-faceted as story-telling.

 

[Alex Ferrari]

I'd take a look at this list of screenwriting books. These books helped me out A TON: Screenwriting Books – Top Ten List

 

[a whitmer]

This thread just keeps getting better and better !

As a Self-Taught screenwriter currently wrapping up my own book, I can offer this insight ...


I have not read a single how-to book. Okay, maybe 5 pages of one (don't remember which) about 15 years ago. But hands-on, trial-and-error is my preferred approach to learning, so I am not discouraging others from reading them.

In my first few years I picked up the very basics by participating in various screenwriter forum's read-n'-comment options. I would post a few pages, get some feedback (Dude/Dudette, you suck!), and then comment on other writer's work in return. I later went on to exchanging reads on full features. This helped me a lot in structure, but did not really help me develop my storytelling. Some, just no epiphanies to speak of.

I sometimes work as a consultant/editor, and have read so, so many screenplays - short and feature - that just don't have any signs of life. 'But I've read all the books! How come this isn't working?! Because you are relying on information that may or may not be conducive to your particular story, and it's sucking the life out of it. Poorly or under-developed plots and characters cannot be saved by crisp, by-the-book/s structuring.

My conclusion: learning how to write a screenplay does NOT make one a storyteller, and visa-versa. These are differnt skills and talents and brain functions. In a nutshell, screenwriting is the craft of putting a story into a working document that is the blueprint for making a film. A well-crafted screenplay does have a better chance of translating into a well-crafted film that tells a complete and engaging story. The process to maintian the story has every opportunity to break apart along the way, however. And does.

Story is also structured in novels, stageplays, teleplays, poetry, lyrics, and so on. Screenwritng is one of several venues (structures).


My opinion? You need to be good at both the structuring of a screenplay and the telling of a good story, and clever at fusing
them together.


I do disagree that you should have done all the research into the craft before trying it. There is nothing wrong with pissing away hours and hours trying to reinvent the wheel. Accidental discovery is as essential as controlled discovery to find new and dynamic approaches to any craft or creative endeavor. Additionlly - and most important - pissing away hours will hopefully lead one to finding their unique voice in storytelling, and unique voice in crafting a screenplay.


Onward ...

I participated in writer forums for a few years before growing frustrated with the endless vitriol writers dump on each other, and with the lack of any films. After all, we write screenplays with the intention of seeing them as film, just as a lyricist writes lyrics with the intention of hearing them in song. I set out looking for other options when I stumbled upon forums that had all the diciplines of filmmaking under one roof. It was here I began to really understand the screenplay's funtion in the whole, learned so may new filmmaking terms, and the techniques and science available in the production process. I made myself available to anyone looking for material. Eventually, it happened.

I would have to say the single biggest benchmark in developing screenwriting and storytelling as a cohesive craft/art/science/business came when I saw my first few shorts produced. What an eye-opener, and you will never get that from any book. Not a chance.

One can write, then read and read again, then rewrite 'till blue in the face, and evertually go mentally numb to any potential issues that invariably pop up in production: how a line is delivered, scene transitions, continuity, location appropriateness, INT and EXT, costume and manneriesm, and so on. When you see these translated into film, it is just so complete with every perfection and every flaw right there.

Seeing this allows one to re-examine their writer's voice and awareness, and gives them these new insights in developing the next story/screenplay.


If reading books is your comfort zone, then by all means do it. But my own experience with hands on, trial-and-error was the right road for me. Not that I'm a brilliant writer, just satisfied with my body of work, and hungry enough to keep at it till I drop dead.



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[Steve Sherrick]

The Art of Dramatic Writing is one that I felt had some impact on me. But i still struggle with screenwriting (as Alex can attest to). Having a story in your head and being able to get it out and onto paper not always as easy as it seems.

 

[Elsie N]

This thread just keeps getting better and better !

As a Self-Taught screenwriter currently wrapping up my own book, I can offer this insight ...


I have not read a single how-to book. Okay, maybe 5 pages of one (don't remember which) about 15 years ago. But hands-on, trial-and-error is my preferred approach to learning, so I am not discouraging others from reading them.

In my first few years I picked up the very basics by participating in various screenwriter forum's read-n'-comment options. I would post a few pages, get some feedback (Dude/Dudette, you suck!), and then comment on other writer's work in return. I later went on to exchanging reads on full features. This helped me a lot in structure, but did not really help me develop my storytelling. Some, just no epiphanies to speak of.

I sometimes work as a consultant/editor, and have read so, so many screenplays - short and feature - that just don't have any signs of life. 'But I've read all the books! How come this isn't working?! Because you are relying on information that may or may not be conducive to your particular story, and it's sucking the life out of it. Poorly or under-developed plots and characters cannot be saved by crisp, by-the-book/s structuring.

My conclusion: learning how to write a screenplay does NOT make one a storyteller, and visa-versa. These are differnt skills and talents and brain functions. In a nutshell, screenwriting is the craft of putting a story into a working document that is the blueprint for making a film. A well-crafted screenplay does have a better chance of translating into a well-crafted film that tells a complete and engaging story. The process to maintian the story has every opportunity to break apart along the way, however. And does.

Story is also structured in novels, stageplays, teleplays, poetry, lyrics, and so on. Screenwritng is one of several venues (structures).


My opinion? You need to be good at both the structuring of a screenplay and the telling of a good story, and clever at fusing
them together.


I do disagree that you should have done all the research into the craft before trying it. There is nothing wrong with pissing away hours and hours trying to reinvent the wheel. Accidental discovery is as essential as controlled discovery to find new and dynamic approaches to any craft or creative endeavor. Additionlly - and most important - pissing away hours will hopefully lead one to finding their unique voice in storytelling, and unique voice in crafting a screenplay.
... (snip)
a

While this doesn't equate 1 to 1 with what you said, I think it could by a stretch reconcile that immersion is also the best teacher of writing.

And in my world, having someone read my writing and commenting on it is also very worthwhile. Sometimes I disagree with the critique and that causes me to defend my words, or if they are indefensible, accept that I'm wrong.

My Mission, Inc. script will get just such a review via a paid pitch through the platform provided by the Happy Writers venue on Stage 32.com. Of course to get the script seen I first have to convince an industry executive to ask to see my script via a written or verbal pitch. But that should offer important feedback as well. If I can't generate interest by describing the story, then maybe something is lacking in the story itself.

There is a $45 fee to get a pitch with ones chosen executive, (a little pricey if you ask me) and you can pitch by Skype, telephone, or a couple of written pages. I have chosen the written version as that allows me to collect my thoughts and do re-writes if necessary.

Don't know what I would do if someone actually wanted to buy the script. It can be cheaply made and I have long planned to shoot it myself. Most of my other stories will require a big budget and there's no way I can shoot one of them holistically... that is, with my hand in every aspect of the production.

But no need concern myself with that outcome since getting picked up is a rare occurrence, as far as I can tell. Still they do promise a review if the script is requested, and that could be most helpful if a top level industry executive identifies a flaw.

 

[PatrickFaith]

I'd take a look at this list of screenwriting books. These books helped me out A TON: Screenwriting Books – Top Ten List

Excellent list, there are a couple I haven't read and will do that soon. I ponder why some people don't like reading these books. When I talk to people in the business going over a commercial or something, we'll make a reference to "save the cat" moment - to make sure everyones on the same page.
I some times think people read these books too seriously though, I kind of think of them as a necesarry manure for my soil of thought.

I do disagree that you should have done all the research into the craft before trying it. There is nothing wrong with pissing away hours and hours trying to reinvent the wheel. Accidental discovery is as essential as controlled discovery to find new and dynamic approaches to any craft or creative endeavor. Additionlly - and most important - pissing away hours will hopefully lead one to finding their unique voice in storytelling, and unique voice in crafting a screenplay.

One thing that Robert Rodriguez was just kind of randomly talking about was just going off where no one can interrupt you and visualize your film, scene to scene. Just do it. As I've been visualizing my film & script, recently I've started seeing the script in colors - will probably not make sense to anyone but me, but it's something I've connected with and helps me visualize how to organically develop scenes while maintaining a beat.

 

[Hrvoje Simic]

All methods and approaches depend on the essence of the story.
One should consider what does it tell to the mind of the viewer and is it worth telling and spending time and effort of many. Is it worth leaving behind for years to come. Does it move, inspire, educate and elighten others.

For the creation to possess the essence, the Soul, it has to be based on true inspiration.
Without it, it is an empty shell, fast food for the Soul.

If the story's premise is simply regurgitating the work of others, all the techniques are simply means of polishing a processed food. If there is no openess, sensibility there is no connection. If there is no connection there is no essence.

One cannot think and reason the essence, it has to be genuinely felt by the storyteller.
Stories which connect, move, inspire and stick are not built on workshops and generic blueprints.

Observe. Feel. Connect.

Let your creative Soul be open to the magical broadcast of the Divine.
You, the storyteller, are the bridge between the realm of ideas and their manifestations, affecting many.
You posses the great creative power...which comes in the package with great responsibility.



Get inspired.

 

[Saied_M]

It's difficult for myself to judge precisely what I'm trying to say because I'm not an expert, but there seems to be some extra step of visualising the story in pictures in addition to writing a script (or is that the same skill as storytelling itself ?). For example, I don't play video games, but this trailer from Halo Reach never ceases to amaze me. Pretty much zero dialogue, yet some story is clearly being told. Also, same with Cyberpunk 2077.

Re film-making, to my mind, Sergio Leone seemed to regularly do this sort of thing, where the dialogue seemed almost bolted on as an afterthought at times. I remember film director/critic Alex Cox on BBC2's Moviedrome series once describing some of Leone's planned Russian siege epic, which had huge financial commitment from Russia, yet there was apparently no script (and Leone passed away before any filming).

Maybe it's too different a process for the guy collaborating with others, compared to the guy who plans to shoot his own thing.

 

[Elsie N]

Excellent list, there are a couple I haven't read and will do that soon. I ponder why some people don't like reading these books. When I talk to people in the business going over a commercial or something, we'll make a reference to "save the cat" moment - to make sure everyones on the same page.
I some times think people read these books too seriously though, I kind of think of them as a necesarry manure for my soil of thought.

One thing that Robert Rodriguez was just kind of randomly talking about was just going off where no one can interrupt you and visualize your film, scene to scene. Just do it. As I've been visualizing my film & script, recently I've started seeing the script in colors - will probably not make sense to anyone but me, but it's something I've connected with and helps me visualize how to organically develop scenes while maintaining a beat.

It's difficult for myself to judge precisely what I'm trying to say because I'm not an expert, but there seems to be some extra step of visualising the story in pictures in addition to writing a script (or is that the same skill as storytelling itself ?). For example, I don't play video games, but this trailer from Halo Reach never ceases to amaze me. Pretty much zero dialogue, yet some story is clearly being told. Also, same with Cyberpunk 2077.

Re film-making, to my mind, Sergio Leone seemed to regularly do this sort of thing, where the dialogue seemed almost bolted on as an afterthought at times. I remember film director/critic Alex Cox on BBC2's Moviedrome series once describing some of Leone's planned Russian siege epic, which had huge financial commitment from Russia, yet there was apparently no script (and Leone passed away before any filming).

Maybe it's too different a process for the guy collaborating with others, compared to the guy who plans to shoot his own thing.

I actually cast my scripts unintentionally and visualize the scene a nano-second before putting words to it (used to be a pico-second but through hard work, I've stretched that out to a nano-second '-)

A for instance, when visualizing a scene for my Imam's Daughter story, I immediately visualized the part of a shady lawyer to be a shady lawyer I've known for decades. Haven't seen him in about a decade and he may not look anything like himself as the character, but that's the template I want to use to describe the character. I do this with every character as I write, which means I don't write scripts... I write movies.

And this may make me a failure of sorts as a scriptwriter. That is, I paid a consultant to give me specific direction on whether or not I had solved the conflict(s) in the story too neatly. She came back with emphasis on what I needed to do to change it from a play to a script. I had no interest in that as I fully intended to do that before shooting (unless I decided to shoot it as a play/feature.) She gave good marks to the story and noted how it could be shot cheaply... almost as though she were addressing a potential buyer rather than me, her paying customer. She just seemed too concerned about script structure rather than story.

And when she did turn her attention to me, she brought up what she thought could be a weakness to be how the main character was developed. But her concern was something that was addressed in the first 4 or 5 pages. At first read of her critique I remember wondering if she had actually read the script or had just skimmed it, as this same type situation showed up in other things she pointed to as a weakness.

Long story short, I got some value from that second set of eyes as her weak critique showed she was simply trying to fill her quota of client expectations of faults pointed out. But still I do not know if I solved the conflict too neatly. Hoping my upcoming pitch will get me a look and thus an insight of what industry professionals think an audience will watch.

Oh, to be fair, the script consultant did make some other good points, just didn't address the one I was asking about.

 

[PatrickFaith]

As an aside, for the pixar film "Inside Out" if you buy it through iTunes has some bonus material where Pete Docter goes through the struggle and rewrites of the story for that film. Is probably the best behind the scenes short on story development I've seen.

 

[Craig W. Bickerstaff]

As an aside, for the pixar film "Inside Out" if you buy it through iTunes has some bonus material where Pete Docter goes through the struggle and rewrites of the story for that film. Is probably the best behind the scenes short on story development I've seen.

Does the iTunes have a commentary track? If it does I might consider buying it over the Blu-ray.