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Why is RED often just a B camera in Hollywood?

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cinemano

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Hello

Just curious after reading so many articles and sites where Big-Time Hollywood people often seem to use RED as a B camera or few shot...

It seems that so many of the "100% shot on RED" productions are for Television. Unless they are smaller productions or independent films.
(not counting "The Knowing", I trust is 100% RED?)

Yet films like "benjamin Button" they use a Viper (1920 by 1080 or something) camera.. Surely the RED could have handled it?? even at more compression, surely its just as good or better??

Whats going on here? I hope these Hollywood people start seeing what RED can do.. I mean come on! I want to see RED footage at a cinema near me!!!

Please will someone tell me why Viper was so much a better choice for them?? So they could launder the budget money of a Viper camera Rental cost?

i hope to see soon more 100% entire films shot by RED in big hollywood productions with famous actors ! Cos this is just silly.. there.. i got it out of my chest now :) RED is NOT a B Camera damnit!!! Grrrrrr...
 
Actually the compression is RED's success and it's achilles heel.

Without compression 5000 owners wouldn't be able to afford the workflow, but not all BIG Hollywood projects feel that comfortable with it.

Epic and the upcoming redcode will probably change some.
 
I think that we are reading articles about films that are about to be released, which means they were shot more than 6 months ago, when RED was a new camera and many of us were unsure about how to go about using it. So many productions used the camera cautiously, sticking with an older system as their main unit as they became comfortable with the RED and it's capabilities.

As time goes by, more and more feature films will be announced that used the RED as a primary camera. As for TV, their post to release times are usually much shorter than features, so it makes sense that we hear of all RED TV series sooner than all RED feature films.
 
Keep in mind that when these major corporations are making a feature film or major television show, they are not as concerned about the camera budget as we are. With millions of dollars above the line, there is a serious disincentive to take any risks on the final image just to save money or time. Plus, let's face it, there are some workflow issues with the RED that are still being perfected. If I were in charge of a $100 Million movie (or even a $10 million one), the last thing on my mind would be shaving a couple hundred thousand dollars off my camera budget especially if it meant potential resistance from key crew members who'd rather go with what they're used to.

Just give it time. I remember back in the 90's, major magazines and catalogs were still being done on very expensive Scitex and Quantel systems when Photoshop and Quark could do the same job for much less. It really isn't just a matter of fear, it's a matter of tradeoffs and risks.

-shooter
 
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very good points : ) I guess in Shooter's example, the Viper used in "Benjamin Button" with its 1920 lines is the Quantel where RED is the young Photoshop that could do more lines but was still unintroduced : )
 
I believe principal cinematography on Benjamin Button began in July/August 2007, before any production units were out the door. Fincher has already used the RED on a few small projects, and was quite impressed with it. But yeah, I think Hollywood is stuck in its Panavision ways for a while, unfortunately.
 
Ask Jim Jannard directly,

he owes RED1.. Production, Research & Development,

also Marketing...???!!!

BTW, he should know it better for sure...!!??
 
cinemano said:
Hello

Just curious after reading so many articles and sites where Big-Time Hollywood people often seem to use RED as a B camera or few shot...

It seems that so many of the "100% shot on RED" productions are for Television. Unless they are smaller productions or independent films.
(not counting "The Knowing", I trust is 100% RED?)

Yet films like "benjamin Button" they use a Viper (1920 by 1080 or something) camera.. Surely the RED could have handled it?? even at more compression, surely its just as good or better??

Whats going on here? I hope these Hollywood people start seeing what RED can do.. I mean come on! I want to see RED footage at a cinema near me!!!

Please will someone tell me why Viper was so much a better choice for them?? So they could launder the budget money of a Viper camera Rental cost?

i hope to see soon more 100% entire films shot by RED in big hollywood productions with famous actors ! Cos this is just silly.. there.. i got it out of my chest now :) RED is NOT a B Camera damnit!!! Grrrrrr...
Click to expand...

100% SHOT ON RED major features will outnumber 100% shot on Viper movies really soon. It depends what you consider major.. but denzyl washington-book of eli, soderbergh's films..he is on his 4th 100% shot on red feature i think, gerrard butler -game, michael douglas- beyond a resonable doubt and probably many others we just don't know about in production.

You are comparing a 5 year old camera (not sure how long it has been out but heard 5 years) to 1yr + old camera.

Red simply is still new so it will be a matter of time before you'll likely see more hollywood projects going 100% red. I copied and pasted a list of digitally shot pictures from wikipedia.

IT doesn't look completely comprehensive..but still interesting...
I don't see many Viper shot major features here.

Labor Pains - Red One 2009
Beyond a Reasonable Doubt- Red One 2009
Book Of Eli - Red One 2009
Naan Kadavul - Tamil[7] Red One 2009
Apocalypto Panavision Genesis 2006
The Argentine Red One 2008
Balls of Fury Panavision Genesis 2007
Before the Devil Knows You're Dead Panavision Genesis 2007
Chemical Wedding Thomson Viper 2008
Click Panavision Genesis 2006
Cloverfield Sony HDCAM/cinealta (750/900/F23) 2008 (segments, other shots include the Panasonic HVX-200, as well as the Thompson Viper)
Collateral Thomson Viper 2004 (except for exterior night scenes)
The Curious Case of Benjamin Button Thomson Viper 2008
Deception Panavision Genesis 2008
Flyboys Panavision Genesis 2006
Game Red One 2008
Genghis Khan Sony HDCAM/cinealta (750/900/F23) 2005
Get Smart Panavision Genesis 2008
Guerrilla Red One 2008
I Now Pronounce You Chuck and Larry Panavision Genesis 2007
If Panasonic SDX-900
Impressionists Panasonic SDX-900
The Informant Red One 2009
Jumper Red One 2008 (some 2nd unit)
Knowing Red One 2008
Me and You and Everyone We Know Sony HDCAM/cinealta (750/900/F23) 2005
Miami Vice Thomson Viper 2006
Next Panavision Genesis 2007
Planet Terror Panavision Genesis 2007
Reign Over Me Panavision Genesis 2007
Sin City Sony HDCAM/cinealta (750/900/F23) 2005
Speed Racer Sony HDCAM/cinealta (750/900/F23) 2008
Star Wars Episode II: Attack of the Clones Sony HDCAM/cinealta (750/900/F23) 2002
Star Wars Episode III: Revenge of the Sith Sony HDCAM/cinealta (750/900/F23) 2005
Superman Returns Panavision Genesis 2006
Surviving Evil Thomson Viper
21 Panavision Genesis 2008
Two Brothers Sony HDCAM/cinealta (750/900/F23) 2004 (tiger shots)
You Don't Mess With The Zohan Panavision Genesis 2008
Zodiac Thomson Viper 2007
Postcards from the future (doc.) Dalsa Origin 2003
007 Quantum of Solace Dalsa Origin 2008 (SFX shots)

Change takes some time...but in my opinion..the pace at which RED has been used in major features is really good. It's not like the Dalsa which was out for so many years..yet never caught on in the hollywood features.
 
oh ok.. i read in premiere magazine or one of those about benjamin button.. they mentioned viper at 1920 by 1080.. perhaps a setting they chose.? Thanks for the list of films :) I hope one of them makes it in Portugal.. only major Hollywood films are shown here unfortunately :(
 
we are in central europe, now i think we are the first here, who has in finishing cinema movie 100% RED. http://www.unknownhourmovie.com/ i hope soon in english, and in 2 days with galery ..some photos here: http://www.filmpark.sk/FilmparkGalery/index.html ,
there is a big problem with finishing in more than 2 K ...we dont find editing system, which is able to edit 35 hours of material in 4K , of course in lover resolution ... we must convert this 35 hours to HD and PAL to be able edit it. The other thing is color correction. We are not able to find system / in "normal" price / which can do real time correction in 4K. If you can help me, please write me: peter@filmpark.sk ,not only software , but thare are hardware limitations ...
 
I agree that compression RED's achille's heel for theatrical release. I think they would've been better off going 2k (with a 35mm imager) and having better ASA, color depth and less noise.

Despite all the arguments for 4k, you never deliver broadcast over 2k and virtually all DI's are done at 2k. Why? Because 2k is about the threshold of our perceptual resolution. With four times less area to fill, 2k could dedicate that extra bandwidth and genius compression to creating far better color space. And you ask why they shot BB on a Viper?

I own a RED. Love it for what it is but also understand some of the sacrifices that come with a 17G body and a 4k chip. I bought it for its 35mm imager mostly and its desktop workflow. Though I still wonder how much better it could be at 2k. I think 4k has more marketing than pictorial advantages. And they're talking about 5k and beyond. Get the colors, latitude and noise right first.
 
Tim Naylor said:
I agree that compression RED's achille's heel for theatrical release. I think they would've been better off going 2k (with a 35mm imager) and having better ASA, color depth and less noise.

Despite all the arguments for 4k, you never deliver broadcast over 2k and virtually all DI's are done at 2k. Why? Because 2k is about the threshold of our perceptual resolution. With four times less area to fill, 2k could dedicate that extra bandwidth and genius compression to creating far better color space. And you ask why they shot BB on a Viper?

I own a RED. Love it for what it is but also understand some of the sacrifices that come with a 17G body and a 4k chip. I bought it for its 35mm imager mostly and its desktop workflow. Though I still wonder how much better it could be at 2k. I think 4k has more marketing than pictorial advantages. And they're talking about 5k and beyond. Get the colors, latitude and noise right first.
Click to expand...

with 2k acquisition, you're now trading off one set of problems for another. assuming you can get the better color, latitude and asa at 2k, you're also losing a lot of that perceptual resolution using a bayer sensor. a native 2k red acquired image is probably closer to 720p perceptually and not suitable for blow by some standards. at least with 4k, you're getting some of those image benefits by scaling down and you're covered for most any blow-up format except maybe imax.

but i agree that red needs to work harder on noise and latitude quality overall.

as far a benjamin button is concerned, fincher owns a few vipers and has enough clout to demand using a viper exclusively on his projects. this year we might see the first all digital film win for best cinematography. who knows...maybe next year it will be a red.
 
Read my post, I'm referring to a hypothetical 2k on a super 35 chip not RED's zoom in 2k. With the same bandwidth and compression tech you should be able to have far less compression with 2k than 4k. The Viper shoots uncompressed footage with a color gamut that can match DI DPX specs. DPX were developed by Kodak to match the amount of info needed handle the amount of info in a 35mm neg for 35mm out. RED has a fraction of that bit rate.

As Genesis, F23, SImaging and Viper have shown, native 2k (with the right color depth)) is more than suitable for blow up. I'm sure the kit rental for David Fincher is chump change in his world. He probably chose Viper for production / aesthetic reasons other than paying off his vipers.

RED has its uses and looks great under many circumstances but I think it's also wise to recognize its shortcomings and demand better. I think their 5k and beyond is not the way to go. I'd rather see them improve the bandwidth, workflow and color space first.
 
Whatever you guys are talking about, will soon be put to rest. At 72%+ chroma and 100% luma RED ONE blows away anything of 3K and below even uncompressed.

Edit:: Let's just say I don't have all the answers yet but I'm confidante in RED
 
Although Red is moving to 5K and above, the one thing to not overlook is that Redcode will be getting an upgrade as well. Less compression, more dynamic range, and most likely better color rendition. R1 was their first camera. Their next generation will take everything they have learned, and the tons of feedback they have received from the top DPs and use that to build cameras that will move towards a truly digital cinema world.

Has everyone here seen Red on a big screen? Has everyone worked with Red in Scratch or other high end solutions? I believe that when lit well, and taking advantage of the dynamic range (subjective but worse case 5, best case 9 useable stops) Red looks great projected at 2K and 4K. But it does have its shortcomings and some have maybe chosen to wait until Red's codec matures. Others are getting along just fine shooting with it. Like all great art, artists choose the tools they are comfortable with and that help them achieve their vision. Unless of course, economics or politics dictates what those tools must be. :-)
 
Darren Orange said:
Whatever you guys are talking about, will soon be put to rest. At 72%+ chroma and 100% luma RED ONE blows away anything of 3K and below even uncompressed.
Click to expand...

From your 1st hand experience, how did it stack up against the f23, f35, D21, and Genesis? Did you not like the Genesis when you last used it. Was the D 21 too slow?

I think it blows away virtually all 40 grand and below cameras. But like most folks here, I want the sky, moon and stars for 17G.

I'm with Steve and wait for some updates. I did just see today, the improved bandwidth for Epic, which is definitely the way to go. I'm still in the dark as to why they must go 5k when they still haven't tweaked color depth, noise and ASA at 4k.
 
Genesis, F-35, D-21,.. have a sensor of about 4K.
The difference to Red is that they process the image in camera to HD or 2K
while with Red the processing happens in post.
 
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