Welcome to our community

Be a part of something great, join today!

Log in
  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Why is Black & White a commercially viable option?

Antonio Ribeiro

Antonio Ribeiro

Well-known member
Joined
Dec 11, 2008
Messages
407
Reaction score
0
Points
0
Location
NYC and London
Hi,

I am curious about the launch of the new Epic M with a B&W sensor. This has been a step also taken by Ikonoscop, which produces the Raw 2K A-cam. It's an understandable option as an artistic choice, but is there a market big enough to make it commercially viable as a product?

Curious to hear more from the community.

Thanks

Antonio
 
well all they did was take apart the bayer sensor and throw the low pass filter back in as far as i understand it, along with some software tweaks. so its not like a complete new camera R&D wise, which probably helps justify doing it since I would imagine it didn't cost too much to figure it out relative to making a whole new camera from scratch
 
That makes sense, they can produce the cameras as they receive orders. I am also curious about the Mysterium X sensor with Native 2000 ISO. I'm wondering about the technology behind it. Have they just ramped up the settings on the same sensor? How can they get higher reso with it? Must be a new sensor.
 
I'm waiting for the immersive media version of the red...

Gotta figure out how to convince Jim to let me lead that project...Can you image...Google street view at 6K..!!! Arial 360 degrees from helicopters...can you say game changer...?

Data handling on that would be insane...

http://immersivemedia.com/
 
Jack Cooper said:
I'm waiting for the immersive media version of the red...

Gotta figure out how to convince Jim to let me lead that project...Can you image...Google street view at 6K..!!! Arial 360 degrees from helicopters...can you say game changer...?

Data handling on that would be insane...

http://immersivemedia.com/
Click to expand...


Man, that is amaseballs!! Can you imagine an audience in the cinema taking part in the experience of the film? It makes 3D feel sooo last Summer!
 
Antonio Ribeiro said:
Man, that is amaseballs!! Can you imagine an audience in the cinema taking part in the experience of the film? It makes 3D feel sooo last Summer!
Click to expand...

Black Eyed Peas, NHL, and a few other groups have been early adopters...

Both national conventions had the technology streaming live...

Yes, the Red version would be awesome.
 
Immersive and dome 360 production has been building - with Dome Theaters and Planetariums adding new programming - check Immersa.org. Here's a RED Epic 360 rig (40K + resolution)... and know of several 3D/360° dome projects in the works.

Panavision-8Epic-rig.jpg
 
Clark Dunbar said:
Immersive and dome 360 production has been building - with Dome Theaters and Planetariums adding new programming - check Immersa.org. Here's a RED Epic 360 rig (40K + resolution)... and know of several 3D/360° dome projects in the works.

Panavision-8Epic-rig.jpg
Click to expand...

That's just as unwieldy as I have visualized....

Question is, why can't they take the Red sensors only, mount to a pre-selected lens set and configure like this housing....

I would think data cables could be run down the stem...

http://immersivemedia.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/03/imc_cs_Dodeca-2.pdf

I'd like to see the software they are using to combine those video files into the 360 view...I know the existing, non-red technology ultimately runs to flash export. We had been experimenting with tourism-based applications. Tour operators can post up their "map push pin" (think google maps)
 
the large multi-EPIC rig is for 4K and/or 8K theaters - these use 5 to 8 projectors and can be very large screens.

BUT - we're off topic - this was on the EPIC-MONO (B&W)
 
Antonio Ribeiro said:
. I am also curious about the Mysterium X sensor with Native 2000 ISO. I'm wondering about the technology behind it. Have they just ramped up the settings on the same sensor? How can they get higher reso with it? Must be a new sensor.
Click to expand...

The technology behind it is the absence of RGB filters on the sensor. No filters = more light, about 1.3 stops, apparently.
 
Thanks for putting us back on track Clark and Bill for clarifying the technical aspect of the additional sensitivity.

Now to the artistic argument versus investment; I would imagine this camera is predominantly aimed at rental houses. But in terms of what is being made, it is possible to light a scene and work with art direction and costume designers, to gain better contract when converting colour to B&W. For the budding, experimental filmmaker, this may turnout to be a more cost-effective option.
 
I love b/w I think we should go back, forget color :laugh:. Plus one can argue with no bayer pattern now this is true pixel to pixel... Yes you can desaturate in post but you still had a bayer pattern input not a pixel to pixel one.
 
Brian Merlen said:
I love b/w I think we should go back, forget color :laugh:. Plus one can argue with no bayer pattern now this is true pixel to pixel... Yes you can desaturate in post but you still had a bayer pattern input not a pixel to pixel one.
Click to expand...

Yeah, but in the grand scheme of things, a good Black and White film in 5K with an Epic is miles better than a 2K B&W film in any other camera out there (personal opinion here), as a film shot with the new B&W Epic will be marginally better (image quality wise) then one shot with an RGB epic. The quality is already so good at that high end that I doubt this camera will make any considerable difference in a crowded market. Than give a Dragon to an Epic with RGB filters and the game is over, right?
 
I figure it's mostly for rental as most people have said, and that makes perfect sense to me. Thing is if you are shooting for black and white and you know it will never be color and you want the best possible quality image it is always best to shoot in black and white. So any film wanting to shoot black and white this camera makes perfect sense(fashion, art, perfume commercials...) It's much better, or shall I say, some people prefer to use real world filters to achieve the shot in camera over the digital equivalent of those filters, it's the same kind of mentality for people who want this camera.

I can also see it as a way of the old vanguard of film shooters of having a system that brings them back to the yesteryear of film making where everything was black and white and the lighting was bloody amazing (in my opinion).

Though if you want to get into the technical, no debayer so an exact representation of each pixel is a real plus, as well as the increased native sensitivity is very huge especially if you want to shoot some really dark and moody noir with velvet blacks, which I'm certain Mr. Fincher is very fond of. If I remember correctly he processed seven in a very specific way so that he could have richer deeper blacks without totally crushing them (though don't take my word for it as it's been a while since I listened to the commentary). Honestly I never complain about more options in tools that help us achieve a certain goal, but I can understand how some might question the product though.

mah to each their own!
 
I salute RED for trying something a little different here. They took a product they already had, made a small change to it just so that it could improve an artistic feature for a niche market. That's pretty cool in my opinion.

As far as commercial viability-- Stephen already said the answer:
"I figure it's mostly for rental as most people have said, and that makes perfect sense to me. Thing is if you are shooting for black and white and you know it will never be color and you want the best possible quality image it is always best to shoot in black and white. "
 
Since it's an M they are probably building to order pretty much so there isn't' really much to lose if they sell only a few. I think its' really cool myself! and yet another example of RED doing things because they can rather then just what makes the most economical sense.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top