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Why I wouldn't recommand RED for features

M

Marco Graziaplena

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You guys at RED are doig a terrific job and probably changing the ways of making movies but you need to correct a couple of things:

1- Switching on the camera
It' simply impossible to wait 3 min for the camera to start up. More and more you need to be fast during productions. If a director wants to see the shot on a new camera position you can't answer "wait few minutes please, camera is starting up". You can imagine what happens during scenes at sunset, dawn etc... if you have to change batteries. Or if you got an actor that has to do something that requires lot of concentration. You just can't ask the whole crew to wait.

2- Batteries
This leads to the second problem: batteries life is too short compared to 35mm, 16mm or video cameras. Original RED batteries least 3h max, and custom built block batteries requires lot of Ah so not every rentals got some.

3- Hand held
Too difficult to unscrew and re-screw all those allen keys. You should find a faster solution as on Arricam or 435.
An israeli arm is to weak for the eyepiece: after 1 minute of hand held it will change position... I saw some interesting 3rd part companies solutions, you should copy or even think something better.

4- No 24V out
You should really add al least 3 24v out on RS. For wireless foucus, HF systems, remote on-off, cine-tape etc.

5- SD video out
I known SD is dead, but we're still in a transition. Lot of steadycam does'nt have HD yet (execpt for Ultra II and some customs built with Transvideo HD), lots of combo can't record HD and same for video HF systems. Using Miranda or any downconverter adds lot of weights (and batteries) on steadycam.
 
for a start, go turn on a camera and time the boot up.
if you're hiring a kit with the EVF held by the israeli arm (red arm) you haven't looked hard for a good kit.
bigger batteries, or hot swap units are not hard to find.
you don't need to fiddle with allen keys unless you choose to build and break down the camera in a way that needs it.
some downconverters are almost weightless, and HD cameras have been used on steadicam many, many, many times...
 
Marco ....
Interesting points ...

Now let's say you want to shoot a feature ... what camera would you use and why?

How much would it cost to produce a feature with your choice vs. a RED?

Who is going to come up with the extra money, and where are they going to get it?

Let's say it's not with Christian Bale, so breaking the Actors concentration will not be a major problem.

(part of the DoP job is now having enough batteries etc.)
 
Sorry I don't know exactly if it is 1 min, 2 or 3...
In any case is much much more than any other camera...
the problem is that with reflex you can see also if the camera is off, but in digital you need to switch on, and should be as fast as possible
 
Marco Graziaplena said:
1- Switching on the camera
It' simply impossible to wait 3 min for the camera to start up.
Click to expand...

3 minutes? More like 1 minute. There are ways around this. In most situations, the start-up time should not be an issue. I usually have the camera powered-up and ready before I'm done attaching all my accessories and mounting the lens if I'm in that big of a hurry. At this point, directors and producers who are choosing to work with RED should be accepting of its little quirks and compromises. Every camera has flaws...

2- Batteries
This leads to the second problem: batteries life is too short compared to 35mm, 16mm or video cameras. Original RED batteries least 3h max, and custom built block batteries requires lot of Ah so not every rentals got some.
Click to expand...

Once again, there are ways to work with this. RED batteries actually have quite good lifespan. I'm not sure what you are comparing with. The camera takes a good deal of power to process everything it does. There are dual-battery mounts like the ones from Switronics and Action Products. With these, you never have to power down the camera all day long to swap a battery.

3- Hand held
Too difficult to unscrew and re-screw all those allen keys. You should find a faster solution as on Arricam or 435.
Click to expand...

WTF are you talking about? Lots of hand-held solutions. I can slide my camera off the Arri dovetail and slide the ET Mantis onto the bottom. It's like a 10 to 15 second procedure in most cases. To go from my shoulder back to the tripod it's the same way. And I can do it unassisted. There's also great handheld solutions from uGrip, ALLSTAR and more. In many situations I like my uGrip kit a bit better than the Mantis. I have the shoulder pad already on my shoulder, just wear it. I slide the camera off the Arri dovetail from the tripod / dolly, wherever and just swing it up to my shoulder. Pad is there, handles already on the camera...

An israeli arm is to weak for the eyepiece: after 1 minute of hand held it will change position... I saw some interesting 3rd part companies solutions, you should copy or even think something better.
Click to expand...

RED isn't going to make every accessory. But there are EVF mounting solutions from Element Technica, Ronford Baker, SIM Video, Zacuto and others. If you rented or used a camera that only supplied a 9" "Israeli arm" with the EVF, then whoever supplied the camera package should be kicked in the nuts. Yes, seriously, kick them in the nuts.

4- No 24V out
You should really add al least 3 24v out on RS. For wireless foucus, HF systems, remote on-off, cine-tape etc.
Click to expand...

Uh... Why? 24V??? There's 12V out via the d-tap connector on the battery plates. How are you going to get 24V out of a 12V system without additional converters and excessive power drain.

5- SD video out
I known SD is dead, but we're still in a transition. Lot of steadycam does'nt have HD yet (execpt for Ultra II and some customs built with Transvideo HD), lots of combo can't record HD and same for video HF systems. Using Miranda or any downconverter adds lot of weights (and batteries) on steadycam.
Click to expand...

HD is dead. Transition happened already. You missed the boat. Of course, that's the case in the USA... The rest of the world isn't quite up to speed yet. Who in the last 3 years has even bought an SD monitor? Lots of options and work-arounds here. Even very compact, in-line converters that take minimal battery power to go from HD SDI 720p to 480/576i if you really need them. I'm actually glad that RED chose to not include additional circuitry for SD output.

My regular steadicam operators (two different guys) both still have SD monitors. We just mount the RED LCD to their rigs, what's the big deal? I fly the ActionCam RED Edition myself... Use the RED LCD. The 7" model is definitely preferred for this application. Actually, it's a really good size for this.
 
Uh... Why? 24V??? There's 12V out via the d-tap connector on the battery plates. How are you going to get 24V out of a 12V system without additional converters and excessive power drain.

That is the point... it would be easier if it was a 24V camera
 
Marco Graziaplena said:
That is the point... it would be easier if it was a 24V camera
Click to expand...

That's the most completely ridiculous reason for not shooting a feature on Red.
Sorry. I question your priorities in the decision making. I'll be taking a second opinion on cameras. Thanks, though. It's been a real eye-opener.
 
of course HD in europe is fine but I'm talking also about combo HD that can record... that's bit more difficult to find, especially if you're on lo-pro production
It's just a question of time for sure... but right now could still be a problem
 
Yeah, I was just saying that most places have already converted to HD. Some parts of the world are still SD.

I'm confused as to why Marco wants to record to HD from RED. Kinda defeats the purpose of shooting RED, IMO. The SDI outputs on the camera are for monitoring / preview, and are not full quality for recording.
 
Mark
may be i didn't explained myself:
the title of this thread was actually "provocative" (I hope this is the right word to use)
the thing that really matter is that a manufacter of camera should try to make the camera as friendly and simple to use as possible.
I just noticed some "failures" on the RED and I'm posting so may be someone will read and think if is the case to change or not
I still want to use RED, and the more I use it the more I find things that could be corrected to have a better camera
sorry for misunderstanding
 
Jeff Kilgroe said:
Yeah, I was just saying that most places have already converted to HD. Some parts of the world are still SD.

I'm confused as to why Marco wants to record to HD from RED. Kinda defeats the purpose of shooting RED, IMO. The SDI outputs on the camera are for monitoring / preview, and are not full quality for recording.
Click to expand...

I just regret to use sometimes downconverter especially if the steadycam operator is in SD and maybe at the rental you can't get a long cable for the RED on board monitor
 
Marco,
i dont want to sound harsh dude so forgive me before i start if i sound belligerent. let me Begin by saying i haven't shot a feature on red as yet, however, if these issues youre having with the camera are so detrimental your unable to see any possible way of shooting a feature adequately with red id be more inclined to think that it was you i wouldn't recommend to be shooting a feature .No camera system is perfect a lot about being a professional means you are able to work under pressure and devise and implement methods to help you work efficiently and effectively, a big key is to learn how to problem solve and or avoid these issues with logical work practice . it could be something as simple as a stand by camera for instance, you get my drift? a tradesman never blames his tools .
 
Ok i got you.. i?m just saying there plenty of things on the camera that COULD be better.
And I hope they will soon. for example look at the first picture that Jannard posted
http://reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=30737
where is going the power cable of that preston (coming from the other side of the camera)? I hope not to a battery...
 
I have shot numerous feature on RED and have had none of the issues you seem to have issue with. Every camera has its ins/outs/ups/downs. go with what works for your production but none of the issues you posed really need any concern given the right prep and research for a project.
 
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