Why can't we all just get along?

[T. Glen Phelps]

When someone from cinematography.com post here they get slammed and the mere mention of RED on cinematography.com gets you either shunned or blasted. I know Jim is active on both forums and generally polite with all his posts. I just feel that RED is bashed unnecessarily on cinematography.com and that newbs with a silly question are unnecessarily ostracized on reduser.net. There are some out there who will never accept any amount of change from the status quo, no matter how revolutionary. On the other hand, when people come to red user with questions, no matter how silly, we should be polite and answer to the best of our ability. Most people who come with questions come as a last resort because they don't know were else to go. The bottom line is that RED is a revolutionary tool for cinematography but it is not the end-all of tools. We should just embrace it as a new tool to further the art and, by all means, not let it be a division between brethren who have a common goal.

 

[Gunleik Groven]

agreed

g

 

[Jannard]

It is pretty frustrating when someone posts here... and gets a legitimate answer to their question in one hour and change, that they post somewhere else as if they were ignored. I spend a lot of time here to do my best to answer questions and be available. When someone ignores the effort, it bugs me. Sorry.

Jim

 

[T. Glen Phelps]

It is pretty frustrating when someone posts here... and gets a legitimate answer to their question in one hour and change, that they post somewhere else as if they were ignored. I spend a lot of time here to do my best to answer questions and be available. When someone ignores the effort, it bugs me. Sorry.

Jim

Jim, I've seen your posts, both here and there (cinematography.com) and you are always polite and to the point. The problem seems to be "snobbism" both there and here. My thread was directed at the masses. I just think we on reduser should set the example and be polite whenever possible. I know that there is a resistance in the industry to the revolution that you have started but the old adage still applies that "you catch more flies with honey than with vinegar".

 

[Gunleik Groven]

just as a fyi, my agreement wasn't directed @ you, Jim... people just seems a tad bit touchy in both "camps". should be unneccesary by now.

the cam works - end of part one
how to have fun with it = part 2

 

[Stephen Williams]

just as a fyi, my agreement wasn't directed @ you, Jim... people just seems a tad bit touchy in both "camps". should be unneccesary by now.

Hi,

Hardly accurate David Mullen is the top poster of all time at cimematography.com with over 11800 posts more than twice as many as anybody else on that forum. He is also a moderator and regular poster here.

Stephen

 

[Gunleik Groven]

But David is hardly in either "camp"

 

[Andrae Palmer]

Only a few at Cinematography.com have been a little "emotional" about RED. As for me... RED has introduced me to cinematography and I'm interested more in learning about film to expand my knowledge.

 

[Jeff Coatney]

The hostility is a direct result of two different mind-sets colliding. The exclusionary world of Hollywood and the inclusive, reach the masses approach that Red exemplifies. DP's have a long, hard road ahead of them when they're starting out and it is a struggle just to get images on film to build a reel. Jim just took a sledgehammer to most of those obstacles for the next wave of DP's.

The people that struggled over the last 5 to 10 years and are just beginning to hit their stride are understandably resentful of the next wave of DP's being able to shoot 35mm with relative ease. Red can be perceived as a threat to your livelihood if you choose to look at it from an exclusionary point of view. So, I get the hostility. I take it as a tacit indicator of an industry in transition.

Established DP's that feel the icy hand of extinction on their shoulder, wether real or imagined, will most likely be loudest in their condemnation of Red. I would categorize such thinking as old paradigm or old world or Analog.

There will be many DP's that will see the benefit of having a new imaging tool at their ready disposal and they will embrace the Red and use it, most likely in a way that accentuates the differences it has compared to film. I would classify this attitude as trending forward. Artists using the latest tools of their own time, made by their contemporaries, producing work that exemplifies the present.

Just as clay gives way to 3D computer modelling, and steel typefaces are replaced with laserprinters, so too will film surrender it's place in history to a digital image. We lived through the great transition of the Analog Age to the Digital Age. Our professional lives span the transom that separates those two worlds and we know that a knife-edge separates them in history.

You choose which side you take your stand on. You can jump aboard the next new wave and be present at it's creation and guide it through your expertise and wisdom, or you can hold on to the old way and go down with your ship. We all know how it will shake out: the young will embrace the new technology and the old will cling to the past. All the snobbery, rudeness, hostility and resentment in the world won't change it.

 

[Mark L. Pederson]

You choose which side you take your stand on. You can jump aboard the next new wave and be present at it's creation and guide it through your expertise and wisdom, or you can hold on to the old way and go down with your ship. We all know how it will shake out: the young will embrace the new technology and the old will cling to the past. All the snobbery, rudeness, hostility and resentment in the world won't change it.

Amen to that.

 

[Mark L. Pederson]

Things change.

 

[Andrae Palmer]

Older DPs will just use something else to create snobbery... be that either lenses, new camera bodies, lighting, location... "production value". Most of the snobs will just adapt to the Epic or an elitist camera body. No one will go down with the sinking ship. Also RED owners will just get inducted into the snob class and more than likely try to create power barriers to the video mob. Hence the migration to a more expensive camera body, scratch cine, 4k projectors, etc. It's all in the will for power.

 

[Mark Toia]

I have had huge amounts of flack in my city as well over RED.
I'm a big believer and a big advocate in the RED CAMERA. The local post houses are giving me hell as well, probably because I don't put work through there telecine anymore. Probably because I had to move half of our post in house because they don't want to get into something so revolutionary...

I've shot nothing but film for the last 15 years, The first RED image I saw when I got my first RED completely blew me away. I haven't shot film since.

What I have decided is this and it seems to be working well. I share nothing anymore, not a single bit of info to anyone unless they are really wanting to learn.

So what's happening now is, people feel that I'm hiding something great and now they are crawling around spying on us, asking lots of questions behind our backs trying to find out what we are up too. Probably because we do some of the biggest productions in Australia.

Its really quite weird. You try to share and you get slammed, you say nothing and they come knocking on the door like scared children missing out on best tasting lollies....

One thing is for sure. I'm keeping this all to myself for now.
All my Clients are screaming for RED and I'm enjoying making a great living from peoples parranoyer.

Long live the knockers.

JIM. Don't get depressed by ignorance. you have handed people a gift and 50% of us realized it and couldn't be happier.:greedy:

 

[Fredrik Callinggard]

I have to address the other side of this, ours. A very good friend of mine (actually one of the guys who helped Geoff to found cinematography). Who is a very well renowned filmworker and special camera technician, decided to post on reduser. He very often works as a motion control operator, has built his own and worked on films like Apocalypto, Children of Men, doing so. He wanted to know some issues and how to maybe run RED etc in different time lapse modes (something like that).

The problem for him was that instantly he was bashed by people who didn't really had a clue what they where talking about. People saying that RED can of course do motion control, but they had no real clue what he was fishing for. He tried to get answers and the thread was over flown with all these people not understanding what he was asking and instead started to attack him. Of course RED can do motion control and why don't you just use this and that, why try to use your own? Well he makes his living on doing so hahahah. Anyway he retreated to cinematorgraphy.net licking his wounds and the experience was enough to put him off. I know he's had conversations with Stuart so this is not about RED, it's about REDUser.

He just felt the site was way to juvenile to be posting on and the problem is that he sees REDUser as RED, so for him RED is juvenile.

REDUser is great but it also reflects on RED and it's just sad when things like that happens. Of course there's the positive side to the thing with stories when people post and immediately get positive answers, but when the fan base kicks in it can be brutal and just plain silly and those are unfortunately the threads most non RED users talk about.

Fredrik Callinggard

 

[Lee Dashiell]

You choose which side you take your stand on. You can jump aboard the next new wave and be present at it's creation and guide it through your expertise and wisdom, or you can hold on to the old way and go down with your ship.

What a great comment. First post, new member and new to RED. We have always tried to move in the direction that makes the most sense, not in an emotional way but in a financial way. We used to own an Aaton XTR package, then bought the SDX900, then the HDX900, now we just purchased the RED. For us, it only makes sense. I'm happy to see another company out there hang on to film.....it's easier for us to sell against.

 

[Mark Thorpe]

I welcome change in a big way. Do I understand it? mostly not. Am I afraid to mention that? absolutely not. If one doesn't ask and just pretends to know WTF they are on about will leave you behind. I welcome the fact that some people choose to heckle me for my apparent ignorance, that in turn amplifies and advertises their ignorance. People stepping up to the plate from 1/3"CCD land like me are here to learn, every single one of us. I've absorbed the knowledge received here and shot RED in the field with no issues. Mostly in part down to Q & A's here on REDUser. I'm not afraid to be left behind, my time will come when these legs give out on the technology marathon but until then expect many more noobie questions from people like me.

Throw me in the water with an animal that can end my life, no problem! Ask me to explain a Bayer Mosaic, yeah right.

Viva RED and the "esprit de corps" I have felt amongst the regular posters. I have never felt the need to post in a hostile environment why would I? If people are already programmed in their desire to slate RED without even willing to listen to the arguments beforehand then F..k 'em is all I can say. At least I accepted change, for the better IMHO.

2c well spent.
Cheers,
Mark.

 

[Michael Lindsay]

Fredrik

I completely agree that Reduser can be an odd and off-putting experience. I find myself being not as helpful because of this. However there is a real hostility against Red.. and this hostility is problematic..

I tried to hire a piece of kit from a commercials hire company the other day(One I have never directly hired from) and was nearly refused due to the production being a red shoot. I was talked down to and had to listen to an incoherent lecture from somebody not fit to assist. This is 'unprecedented' in my professional life. Most of the time people bend over backward to be helpful (especially if your happy to pay rate).

RED is very disruptive.

regards

Michael

PS I hope that Epic answers the genuine/legitimate facility concerns out there and I can then just ignore the frightened/incoherent ramblings of the anti-red crowd..

 

[jpp]

You choose which side you take your stand on. You can jump aboard the next new wave and be present at it's creation and guide it through your expertise and wisdom, or you can hold on to the old way and go down with your ship. We all know how it will shake out: the young will embrace the new technology and the old will cling to the past. All the snobbery, rudeness, hostility and resentment in the world won't change it.

This is not a religious war, and there's no need to take sides. There will always be plenty of ways to acquire images, and DPs of all ages and experience levels can legitimately prefer film technology to electronic sensors without being anti-technology idiots or resentful fools. But even mild criticism of the camera can draw hysterical responses on reduser, driving away DPs who could be making valuable contributions here. Claudio Miranda, case in point?

The fact that much of the Red criticism on cinematography.com is mean-spirited, uninformed and just plain insulting doesn't excuse party-line excesses here, often coming from people with little or no experience.

The only ships that are going down are bad or unmarketable films. This Divine Light approach to the camera doesn't do Red or anyone else any favors in the end.

 

[laguun]

There are very few users posting on c.coms red subforum forum at all.

The main aggressive noise and bashing there is generated by some few, maybe 5-10, posters. Its has already become much more quiet in the recent 24 months.

I suppose that 2009, when many of the complainers in that subforum will be able to afford a personal red (scarlet) that problem will resolve itself.

Here at reduser.com the fans are sometimes a little bit embarassing in their over-enthousiasm, but this site offers real world info, good contacts to houndreds (if not thousands) of professionals from all levels and jobs of cinematography, while c.coms red subforum sadly sees very few posts and often contains completly false infomations. I say sadly, as other subforums are just fine.

Just recently some posters claimed they couldnt get more than 8 stops out of red, or that there would be 32GB c/f cards from red etc.

But these things are just normal. We saw that when DTP was introduced, when tape became daw/nuendo/protools etc, when moviola/steenbeck became avids etc, when optical copiers became discreet etc, when nikon/canon/hasselblad etc changed from mechanical cameras to sensor basing ones and now all of this happens again, as it has happened before. Completly normal in industries who do transfer from mechanical to digital.

 

[Joseph Hutson]

Hi,

Hardly accurate David Mullen is the top poster of all time at cimematography.com with over 11800 posts more than twice as many as anybody else on that forum. He is also a moderator and regular poster here.

Stephen

You don't have Peter Majtan over there do you?:w00t: