Why can't EPIC-X Stage 2's be EPIC-M's + Addl. Hard Cost?

[michael zaletel]

I totally understand RED keeping the lines separate. And they have already made us a heck of a deal on the Stage-2 program as it is. When I look at my Stage-2 reservations and I add in the Bomb EVF plus 2 x 256GB SSDs (or 4 x 128GB), it's still half the price of an Epic-M package.

The EPIC-M is a great deal too if you consider buying an Epic-X body alone is $28K, once Stage-2 and 3 are complete. But nothing trumps the deal we're getting with Epic-X Stage-2.

Hi Jeff:

I completely agree that RED has already made us a heck of a deal on the Stage-2 program. I am not asking for a better deal or any further discounts. I'm not sure why some think I am complaining or asking for more. The $5,000 number and $20,000 number were just examples I threw out for sake of explaining the concept. I stated twice RED would have to determine that difference whatever it is.

As you say, the price of the EPIX-X body alone is $28,000 and so the entire package that comes with EPIC-X stage 2 likely has a total retail value of closer to $36,000 - $40,000 right. Meaning what all the pieces included will sell for on Red.com once they are available. Red is giving this to us on Stage 2 for $19,500 so we are essentially getting a $16,500 discount on the package vs. what someone who orders a similar EPIC package at NAB 2011 would pay without any stage discounting.

Please hear me out...

If we subtract the low estimate $36,000 retail value of EPIC-X from the $58,000 retail value of EPIC-M, that leaves $22,000 difference. There are a lot of early adopters that could afford $22,000 to get an EPIC-M now instead of their EPIC-X stage 2 later that cannot afford $58,000 for an EPIC-M.

Can you see how I am not asking for any further discounting. Not asking for any better deal, just asking for another option that might be possible. In this equation, I think it is fair to assume a retail value of $36,000 for the stage 2 package because I am certain that a few people will sell theirs for more than that once they receive. I hope to keep mine until I'm 117.

Again, there is a lot I don't know, that's the point of a forum, to ask questions, get answers and learn new information.

I'm honestly just trying to help. Lots of good guys (and gals) don't have $58,000 and may not otherwise get their EPIC-X Stage 2 until August because of the recent supply chain issues from Japan.

-michael zaletel

 

[Michael Hastings]

I totally understand RED keeping the lines separate. And they have already made us a heck of a deal on the Stage-2 program as it is. When I look at my Stage-2 reservations and I add in the Bomb EVF plus 2 x 256GB SSDs (or 4 x 128GB), it's still half the price of an Epic-M package.

The EPIC-M is a great deal too if you consider buying an Epic-X body alone is $28K, once Stage-2 and 3 are complete. But nothing trumps the deal we're getting with Epic-X Stage-2.

Jeff's point is important. I'm an early stage 2 champing at the bit to get my Epic-X and frustrated with delays. But I have also been a manufacturer for 25 years and realize that sometimes these things get awkward.

There may not be much difference in cost between machined parts and maybe there isn't even a lot more hand labor on an M than X. Red made us a pretty phenomenal deal and Jim's not going to renege, but we also have to remember that RED is a business and a lot has changed. Not just HDRx™™™™ and SSDs, but the world itself changed. Red's competitors are shipping lesser, but competitive cameras - the most direct digital cinema competitor, Arri, is selling a 3K/2k camera for $60,000+. Sony is undercutting Epic with a cinema-sized sensor 1080P camera for $13K.

Even if it costs just a little more to make these machined units the main thing is RED has a large number of people willing to pay $50,000 for the camera now, and they may be losing customers to the competitors if they only ship discounted Epic-Xs to previous customers. So they may have decided to put the radically discounted early adopters program back a little bit. This could mean an extra 10 to 25 million dollars in sales - to customers that, if they had to wait six months or a year until all Xs have shipped, might be forced to buy an F3 or Alexa - providing money and promotion for those companies instead of RED. Jim presumably doesn't need the money - Forbes seems to think he has a decent nest egg. But RED is a separate entity (and I suspect Jim is trying to grow RED, as much as possible, as if he didn't have a billion in the bank) so it will benefit all of us in the long term for RED to have as much cash flow and profit as they can - to invest in more people, production capability, long term support, extra inventory, new products, etc.

I was surprised to hear there are already 250 Ms in the wild and it may be that some are going to people/productions that aren't in the epic-X cue. While it could be annoying to the faithful that those people can jump the line (for a $12K premium don't forget), besides the financial aspect, some of these possible epic-M customers are influential in our industry, even though some may have sneered at us in the beginning. But the larger truth is it is important for Epic to be embraced by them and that would be put off another year or so if they had to wait until the end of the line - or longer if they simply bought another camera.

I think we are at an awkward crossover point where RED will have the capability to produce both Ms and Xs, but with the announcement that the situation in Japan may cause some constrained supplies that have to be allocated - which could cause some (understandable) consternation among the X-ers. In the past, after a moment to think about it, Jim has always recognized the issues and dealt with it appropriately, so I trust RED will come up with something that is reasonable for everyone.

PS:

Machine and build by hand is much different that "hand-machined".

Jim

I meant to mention to Imran (but it got late) that you have to read his posts carefully, because Jim is pretty precise in his wording.

 

[Curran Giddens]

I was surprised to hear there are already 250 Ms in the wild and it may be that some are going to people/productions that aren't in the epic-X cue. While it could be annoying to the faithful that those people can jump the line (for a $25K premium don't forget), besides the financial aspect, some of these possible epic-M customers are influential in our industry...

Michael, remember we already did the math. Epic-M is less than a $12K premium. You have to compare it to Stage 4 since Epic-M owners dont lose their place in line for Stage 2 (if they have one that is). And yes, I'm sure they are also going to some people who aren't in the Epic-X cue.

 

[Alexander Ibrahim]

Well, I have no clue how I'd pay for it, but I'd take an Epic M TODAY, because once I had it I know how I could pay a note on it- and that is rather easily!

I think that Micheal's suggestion is basically fair.

What I'd really prefer is if Red could ramp up their US production of components across the board. I'd be happy to figure out how to pay Red's full asking price for Epic M and accessories.

Perhaps if Red committed to making a LOT more Epic M's they could settle some issues and bring the price down a bit- maybe through a package deal.

(As an example, $70000 for a Epic M, RPZ 17-50, Bomb EVF, 3" LCD, two batteries and charger, 1.8" drive module and two 128GB would be PHENOMENAL. Add "kit" prices on any RPPs purchased at the same time.)

My main point, and something I've wanted from Red since day 0 is better component availability. I think having their own US manufacturing would help with that enormously.

Something I want from more American manufacturers is simply more stuff truly made in America- but that particular desire doesn't serve the camera market, just my country. In the case of Epic M, there is a real value to the product- not just a sticker for pride.

There are a thousand reasons why this might not be tenable, but if it is I hope Red considers it.

 

[Elsie N]

... you have to read his posts carefully, because Jim is pretty precise in his wording.

More like precisely ambiguous. :smile5:

But then, any smart businessman will allow himself some wiggle room.

 

[Elsie N]

To boil the issue down to thick syrup... Michael wants to withdraw his deposit for his Stage 2 Epic if he gets a guarantee from RED that he will be put in the next available place in line for an Epic M... probably with some assurance where that place in line will be. He will then pay full price for the Epic M.

It's up to RED to publicly or privately say Yes, No or Maybe. And as far as I can see, no Epic Stage Holders will be harmed or killed in the making of this scenario.

 

[jimhare]

Your logic says we get a $16,500 discount for Epic X!stage 2 that you want to apply to Epic M. This still makes Epic-M $41,500 cash from you doesn't it? Are you saying this is what you're willing to pay, or $22k total?

Seems like an Epic-X in 2-3 months for $19,500 is worth waiting for.

 

[N_Villers]

Please don't take offense, I am waiting just as eagerly as you are for an Epic via stage 2, but this does strike me a bit as looking a gift horse in the mouth.

Give an inch and they will want a mile.

I do not know of any other company with as generous an incentive program as Red and asking for more, more, more is only going to discourage future offers.

Epic is coming... patience.

 

[michael zaletel]

I think people aren't reading my posts very closely. Oh well. Lesson learned in forum communication 101.

I wasn't asking this question for myself. I'm fine waiting until October for my EPIC-X Stage 2. If I did get an opportunity to buy an EPIC-M, I would likely want to keep my EPIC-X Stage 2 as well. I was suggesting applying the $36,000 retail value of EPIC-X Stage 2 package to the $58,000 EPIC-M package price and paying the $22,000 difference or paying the actual cost difference (whichever is less) if RED would be willing to do that.

Man am I sorry I brought this up.

-michael zaletel

 

[Jeff Kilgroe]

Michael, I know we didn't fully agree, but I did understand you. It was definitely worth asking. If RED did allow it, I'm sure it would be an interesting proposition to many. I know several Stage-2 people who have also signed up for Epic-M, myself included. I think there's quite a demand for them and a sizable list of willing buyers already.

 

[Elsie N]

I think people aren't reading my posts very closely. Oh well. Lesson learned in forum communication 101.

I wasn't asking this question for myself. I'm fine waiting until October for my EPIC-X Stage 2. If I did get an opportunity to buy an EPIC-M, I would likely want to keep my EPIC-X Stage 2 as well. I was suggesting applying the $36,000 retail value of EPIC-X Stage 2 package to the $58,000 EPIC-M package price and paying the $22,000 difference or paying the actual cost difference (whichever is less) if RED would be willing to do that.

Man am I sorry I brought this up.

-michael zaletel

So, this was an exercise in what if? I did not get that.

 

[Meryem Ersoz]

I asked the same question in a different thread, but no response.

I think RED has bit off a lot to chew already and they don't want to complicate the various flavors of stages and such by expanding the options. Can't blame 'em for that...I am sure the logistics are pretty crazy.

Probably better to put the question to your Bomb Squadder or someone at RED if you are serious about pursuing it.