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Why Buy an Epic?

Zeb B

Zeb B

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Hello Reds,

In considering an Epic purchase I put together this list of qualifiers that try to capture the calculus that goes into a substantial acquisition such as this. I would ask your feedback as to what am I missing, or better yet, post your Top Ten List so I and others can reflect and learn.

Thank you in advanced!


My Purchasing Qualifiers
​

Company Related

1. Company Profile: Innovation Driven with the resources / leadership to endure and a track record of delivering on marketing promises with reliable products.

2. Support: Proven five star after sale support as measured by the customer. Fast response times to problems and issues. Transparency in product / support issues with the online community.

3. Online Professional Community: Mutual support from leading professional peers that I can learn the craft from and network with.

4. Third Party Support and Compatibility: Having a range of products and services that are built for or work with the acquisition through post workflow from leading vendors.

6. Forward Compatibility: History of upgrades offered to existing customers at reasonable prices to prevent technical obsolescence.

7. Education Support: Company sponsored events that bring industry professionals together to share in a hands-on format. These programs become progressively specialized as users advance in skill.

8. Fair: Makes sure that everything within reason is done to help support my needs. Values my time and support for the brand. Never acts it's relative size to me.

9. Communication: Online production, shipping, support status and account management so I can self serve information.

10. Value: Is the best of class for price/performance/support


Product Features

1. RAW Output / Variable Compression: Combined with 16 bit color space for maximum quality and workflow/post flexibility. Powerful but easy to use software to go with.

2. Variable / High Frame Rate: At high resolution for creative flexibility

3. In Camera Play Back: As a mostly one man field shooter - need to know the shot is in the can. I understand this is a high priority feature in Epic development.

4. HDRx: To be explored beyond the obvious application

5. Canon and other Lens Mounts: Opens up a huge creative pallet of options

6. 5K Resolution: Provides a range of creative possibilities. The concept of projecting on future hi rez movie screens is of lesser value to me.

7. Ease of Workflow: Keeps developing this feature for the small staff producers of content.

8. Low Light: Noise free at candle light levels

9. Pro Audio Video I/O: XLR, Thunderbolt etc in modular form when possible to allow upgrades.

10. Size / Weight: The best camera for the job is the one you can have with you or will fit in the shot.


Concerns:

1. Single source supply for Product, Service, User Network and Support. The possibility of getting banned from RedUser.net and fired as a customer exists. This even remote event would create severe financial consequences for me as a small producer.

2. Production / Shipping / QC: As with any fast growing technology company that is trying to do so much, it is very challenging to remain focused on hitting ship dates and delivering tested professionally reliable products rather the next new thing.

3. Warranty: From what I understand if I was to try and market my Epic after a short time my warranty drops from 2 years to 90 days upon transfer.
 
I wouldn't put too much thought into it. Have you seen how fast Red Ones sell once posted? If you can afford it, get it, use it, make it make it's $$ back, if not sell it. Easy peasy japaneasy ; )
 
Hi Josh,

Maybe your putting to much thought into it all.

Simple things to think about.

Firstly... are you creating your own content that you are selling for X amount of dollars that can sustain a purchase of a 70K EPIC Kit.
(That 70k including a couple of RED lenses etc etc etc.) will cost you $5,830 dollars per month (for 12 months) or $197 dollars per day for only one year to justify having.
If you can easierly justify these figures over 12 months... (because after that you own it out right) ... then I say buy it without hesitation.

Secondly... Think about it over the competition... Say Alexa being the only camera that rates anywhere close it.

EPIC is 1/3 the price of Alexa(shooting PRO RES ONLY) - 1/8 the price if you want to shoot ARRI RAW from it... So price point EPIC wins.

EPIC shoots up to 300 FPS @ 2k 16bit RAW! - ALEXA shoots max 60fps @ HD in PRO RES
EPIC shoots up to 120 FPS @ 5k 16bit RAW! - ALEXA shoots max 30fps @ HD in 12bit RAW

EPIC is 1/3 the size and weight of ALEXA.

Trying going to the extreme with CANON 5D / 7d
Canon wins two of these points. Cheap and light weight... Image quality HD, (missing lines) @ H264 MAX 60FPS. Still nothing to sneeze at.

One of your concerns is being Banned off the RED FORUM... Trust me, Ive pushed the envelope here in the way of awkward questions and impatient impetuous posts... Not unless you really go over the line and start being hugely disrespectful.. I think you are fine.
Unless some moderator gets up on the wrong of bed. :)

Good luck but please remember, never over commit your self financially, there are a lot of cheaper cameras that make great pictures out there. You can easierly build up to a EPIC from there once your cash reserves are topped up.

PS..

..... And I have a sneaky suspicion Scarlet will go 35mm sensor... because nobody (mostly nobody) wants a 2/3 inche sensor anymore. (lets hope)
There are too many 35mm sensor cameras being spat out the door at the moment by other manufactures and I don't think a 2/3 inche chip camera even with RAW - HDR - and no playback and a onboard camera lasting 30m mins will make people sway off those larger sensor cameras.

just my two cents worth.

Have fun Josh. The EPIC is a great machine. I can't shoot with anything else these days, it's that good.
 
Mark.....about Scarlet---you are probably right that RED will go 35mm....HOWEVER -- My WISH is they put out a 2/3 sensor for the TV world.....yeah, i know the sell about shooting 5k and I LOVE It and have my 2m's and 2 x's...BUT, 95% of my life is set shooting tv docs....and depth of field issues is a giant challenge for RUN & GUN folks...we can't setup and try to pull focus while the action is happening and i don't know anyone that can do what is required in my field underwater w/out setting a hpyerfocus position and then adjust as and if needed. That said....what i love is RAW---give me RAW any day and give me a run and gun down and dirty 2/3 sensor that doesn't have the issues like 5k and depth of field. Give me a fixed lens and push auto focus so i can set focus FAST on a subject and then go from there with follow focus if i choose....

.....RED--don't tell me there is not a market for THAT. i've got all the big toys and love em....now give me my little run and gun weapon. You'll sell a shit load of em.
 
Josh Beadle said:
The possibility of getting banned from RedUser.net and fired as a customer exists. This even remote event would create severe financial consequences for me as a small producer.
Click to expand...
U funny guy. I wouldn't mention this to any associates you might have to win over.
 
Kalani Prince said:
I wouldn't put too much thought into it. Have you seen how fast Red Ones sell once posted? If you can afford it, get it, use it, make it make it's $$ back, if not sell it. Easy peasy japaneasy ; )
Click to expand...

Redhead = Cool products you sell. I have a Zoom that would like to get all punk every now and then
 
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Mark Toia said:
Maybe your putting to much thought into it all.
Click to expand...

Me over thinking shit . . . no way! Since kindergarten I've been called OCD and ADD which I immediately correct to OCB and ADB. It's a Behavior not a Disorder bitches!!!
 
A Red One MX is also a GREAT camera - all told I'd say better than the equal of Alexa (same plusses, some minusses compared to Arri) and dirt cheap new or used. A real workhorse, and for some of us, me included, slighter larger weight/size (still much less than Alexa) is not a big deal.

No full-on better cam than a RED MX can be had, except an Epic. And Red One has certain advantages over Epic for now, like playback in-cam, the ability to use cheap, huge harddrives as media, and others.
 
What do you mean Johnny? Alexa has points of greatness, as does Epic (very many) as does Red One. That's all I meant to say.
 
Hi Josh, you've made a careful analysis of all details and what you say makes a lot of sense. Especially so, as your list seems is on the cognitive level pretty complete.

The emotional side of the coin is: Having limited amount of resources available, it's amazing to have the camera I would bought although had an unlimited amount of resources. This reality today with the camera is something I could not even dream in my wildest dreams ten years ago. And knowing I need not to make any compromizes due to a camera that is not good enough is rather inspiring. Moreover, when I see that I didn't get as good images as somebody else, there are no excuses and can only try to learn for the next occasion.

When bought the Red One I was bit worried of the weight of the system and the amount of batteries I need in shooting there in the wilderness. The Red One setup was at least twice as heavy as my previous system. But I was strongly driven by the idea that the Red One creates way better images than my previous cameras. And despite the weight, haven't regret. Instead, bit unexpectedly, the images of the camera have trained my eyes to see things I didn't see before. One big reason for this is, RED enables one to fully exploit the power of the RAW files and gives control to all details. In my opinion to an extent that goes beyond what one can do with DSLR raw files.

Summing up, feel there are things that cannot be predicted by a priori rationality. If you can afford the Epic without risking your economic situation, recommend to go on with it.
 
Johnny Friday said:
Mark.....about Scarlet---you are probably right that RED will go 35mm....HOWEVER -- My WISH is they put out a 2/3 sensor for the TV world.....yeah, i know the sell about shooting 5k and I LOVE It and have my 2m's and 2 x's...BUT, 95% of my life is set shooting tv docs....and depth of field issues is a giant challenge for RUN & GUN folks...we can't setup and try to pull focus while the action is happening and i don't know anyone that can do what is required in my field underwater w/out setting a hpyerfocus position and then adjust as and if needed. That said....what i love is RAW---give me RAW any day and give me a run and gun down and dirty 2/3 sensor that doesn't have the issues like 5k and depth of field. Give me a fixed lens and push auto focus so i can set focus FAST on a subject and then go from there with follow focus if i choose....

.....RED--don't tell me there is not a market for THAT. i've got all the big toys and love em....now give me my little run and gun weapon. You'll sell a shit load of em.
Click to expand...

I'm only guessing mate. I would not have a clue, but for you. I hope they 2/3 for you.
 
Mark Toia said:
????
Click to expand...
Mark, it seems to evident Josh has thought about this in depth, and reading his posts reveals he is a person who processes things very carefully. When somebody who has a different kind of character says he puts too much thought on must sound like a careless comment missing the point. In this light his reaction is pretty obvious. While processing everything in such a depth, Josh makes valuable observations. Justified views are always constructive.
 
Josh Beadle said:
Hello Reds,

In considering an Epic purchase I put together this list of qualifiers that try to capture the calculus that goes into a substantial acquisition such as this. I would ask your feedback as to what am I missing, or better yet, post your Top Ten List so I and others can reflect and learn.

Thank you in advanced!
Click to expand...

Josh.

I have a suggestion. Find an Epic near you. Rent it for a day. I think your list will become meaningless. No response on this board can replace the feel of that piece of machine in your hands. The purchase versus rent consideration should not cloud your decision about using this tool to accomplish your objectives - creative or commercial.

Storytelling is an art that can't be broken down into 4 decimal point precision with a DOE algorithm.

Use it for a day...you won't be disappointed.
 
Johnny Friday said:
Mark.....about Scarlet---you are probably right that RED will go 35mm....HOWEVER -- My WISH is they put out a 2/3 sensor for the TV world.....yeah, i know the sell about shooting 5k and I LOVE It and have my 2m's and 2 x's...BUT, 95% of my life is set shooting tv docs....and depth of field issues is a giant challenge for RUN & GUN folks...we can't setup and try to pull focus while the action is happening and i don't know anyone that can do what is required in my field underwater w/out setting a hpyerfocus position and then adjust as and if needed. That said....what i love is RAW---give me RAW any day and give me a run and gun down and dirty 2/3 sensor that doesn't have the issues like 5k and depth of field. Give me a fixed lens and push auto focus so i can set focus FAST on a subject and then go from there with follow focus if i choose....

.....RED--don't tell me there is not a market for THAT. i've got all the big toys and love em....now give me my little run and gun weapon. You'll sell a shit load of em.
Click to expand...

I'm in the same boat Johnny - I absolutely love my R1 and Epic cameras - they're phenomenal cameras for certain portions of my image shooting work! But for all the mobile EFP TV work I do I also have a daily need for a fixed zoom 2/3" sensor camera, with selectable 3k raw (for shows with longer turnaround time) and 1080p RGB (for shows with quicker turnaround time), bayonet 2x extender and wide converter, internal ND, a small sun gun on top, and a short shotgun and dual wireless receiver on a small L arm. When I want 5k or 4k resolutions, real high frame rates, 35mm DOF, and/or want to use my Canon or Nikon lenses, I can always use my Epic or R1 cameras - but about 80% of the time I'd be using the 2/3" camera I described. Horses for courses.

Market size? The 2/3" mobile EFP camera market is the largest camera buying market in the motion media industry - and will be for a long time to come. Why? Because the size, mobility, resolution, form factor, and utility of the camera I described above perfectly fits the needs of the mobile EFP industry - which is a giant industry in terms of the sheer number of productions each year. I hope Red stays with a 2/3" sensor in the Scarlet Fixed. IMO they could sell tens of thousands of those.

Shooting professionals know how to fit square pegs in square holes and round pegs in round holes - which is simply another analogy for "horses for courses". My feeling is that there's no need to swat flies with a baseball bat - it makes much more sense to swat flies with a flyswatter.
 
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