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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Who pays my 1st AC? Focus puller? Gaffer?

Matthew Scott

Matthew Scott

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Over the past few years I've worked as a DoP with numerous talented people (1st AC, 2nd AC, Focus Puller, Gaffers, etc) and am really seeing the benefits of a tight crew that work well together. As I begin to accept new jobs, I naturally recommend my main men (and women) from the camera department but I'm finding it awkward to negotiate when it comes to wages, especially when it's a low budget production. Awkward because I know I work best with my usual crew, and always want to work with them but, often the production company have little in the way of budget for camera, let alone lighting, grip, etc. Take this for instance. I just finished a feature and really bonded with my crew. The work I produced was truly a reflection of how well we worked together. I now get approached to shoot another film and am asked "how much do you charge? Can you do a package deal with you and your camera?".

ME: "Sure, how much do you have budgeted for Camera?"

PRODUCTION COMPANY: "We don't have a lot....in fact, we don't have much at all...what's the best you can do?

ME: (I love the script and so far like the people) "I can do you this package deal $xxxx.xx"

PRODUCTION COMPANY: "Okay.....that's probably more than we had allocated.....but yeah....we should be able to make it work."

ME: "Okay cool, and how are you placed for the rest of the crew? I know and work well with these people....(eg, eg, eg) I highly recommend them."

****insert awkwardness here*****

Part of me is thinking, I'm a sub contractor negotiating my own wages and although I want to work with (and produce the best results with) these people, it's up to them to negotiate their own wages, etc. Right?

The other part of me is torn.....I know this company are hoping to get anything they can for free, including crew. The budget is already tight. I want to work with my main crew but worry that they will not be paid. I worry because I tell my crew that I'm shooting a new film, ask them to apply for it (if they want to) and hope to have them on board. If they agree to work for free, then I get paid and they work just as hard as I do but get nothing. That feels wrong to me. I feel obligated to either take a pay cut, or, help negotiate something with the production company for them. Is this my responsibility? I feel like it shouldn't be but then again, I'm the one who wants to work with them. I'm the one who is recommending them and know that my best work comes from working with them.

GAH!!! It's so frustrating. I'd love to know how others are handling this situation. Obviously it would be different on bigger budget productions.....or maybe it isn't? What is the general way in the industry? I've read that the DoP is hired and is then expected to source his/her own crew. Does that include negotiating wages? Talking money? Any advice would be much appreciated :)

Thanks!

Matt
 
DOP typically brings on his own crew, but wages are typically standard industry rates. Usually the production company will negotiate with them individually. You as the DOP should never be negotiate wages, rather recommend them, then let the production company do the rest. All you can do is say you work well together and it's in their best interest to get these people. That's at least how it works here most of the time. If your AC etc can't come to an agreement, the company has to look elsewhere...

If your union, there are set rates. So it makes it a lot easier knowing the production understands those rates ahead of time...
 
And if this is your first time doing a job for this production company make sure the terms are such that you get paid on a regular basis. To many people get screwed over due to the "check is in the mail" syndrome. Always make sure the terms favor you and the hard work you are putting into it.
 
Being an Australian shoot, forget about UNION BS.. doesn't exist in this part of the world thank god...

When you get someone calling you from a production company and they have "no money" , but your happy to do the project for $XXX amount of dollars... then thats all you do, forget about doing anymore than exactly what they are paying you for.
The responsibility lies squarely on them 100% to organise the rest of the shoot, crew, gear etc... You just turn up with a smile on your face.

I own a Production company in AUS, And use to run a very large one until the the rest of the world dragged me over seas to work..... We had it all, large studios, trucks, cameras all the bells and whistles... So I know exactly whats going on in this situation. You are getting a call from a able bodied producer, who is trying to make a deal work, so don't worry about anything else other than the task at hand.
If you turn up and there are no lights, no grips gear, no crew... just you and a 5D.. then just do the best job you can with a smile on your face, Don't whinge about, just crack out the best you can, get paid and walk away knowing that you made a buck for the day and shot some cool images.

Always remembering, that you did them a favour and you were pleasant fast and wonderful to work with, you will more than likely get more work from them.
Do opposite to this.. and see what happens.

Welcome to the future...


Have fun. :)
 
Hey Mark, thanks for your input. I'm not actually worried about this production company, they have been great so far, pre prod is awesome and a good film is bound. Just curious about how other DP's deal with crew recommendation and wage negotiations. There's an inbuilt urge for me to look after my crew, getting them work makes my work shine and the experience more enjoyable.
 
My pitch to the Production company when it comes to my "preferred Crew" is that its in their best interest. You work together and can work faster, get more done in a day and know you can trust their contribution. The shoot will run smoothly and no friction on set with an unknown personality. Same budget issues here. I am lucky the wonderful group of misfits I work with most often are pretty loyal and have on occasion taken a pay cut to work with me. They also know I will try to make that up to them when I can. Some times with an extra prep day or two. Or a couple cold beers when the project is finished.
 
I have been the tech on a same crew shoot for 200 days now, we go another 40 days coming up over the next 2 months... I tell you the DP and AC mindmeld like in Pacific Rim! They don't even need to get marks usually, they just wing it boom first take like every time unless the talent screws it up! Its quite amazing seeing people who work together all the time, they had worked in the past and the AC was brought in. Did I mention we shoot with a super shallow DOF!? Like table top food stuff only... But to sit there and see how well they work together is really quite amazing and I think its in any productions best interest to hire crews that have a good working relationship with each other versus strangers who may not be quite so on point.

We're doing a week shoot with our AC as DP and need a new AC for the shoot and I am legitimately terrified lol...when we switch hand models even its usually a nightmare to get them into the groove of our system...but an AC? Doomed I tell you
 
I like a lot of what is being said in this thread. All I would add is that I would suggest you get a few references from your past producers so that the next client can have a producer perspective on assembling your team. Get the people talking the same language talking about all the plusses to be had.

Keep a high level of dialog with your crew about this as well.

When a crew is working the way you describe it is great. When it is not, it can be absolute hell and the product suffers.

david
 
Thanks so much for your contributions, it means a lot. My. 1st and 2nd have become brothers of mine and we work so damn well together, it's just difficult to communicate that with conviction and meaning to the producers and writer/director's. Maybe I just need practice. The reference from a producer is a good idea, as is keeping the conversation loud and clear with my crew.... Thanks again guys :)
 
From the production side of things, its always about the $$$$. If you have a producer that's hiring you that has been on a bad shoot with a bad crew, they might know that putting money in on the front end on a great crew can save LOADS of money on the back end. But from what I've found on my end, that is rarely the case. We work directly with clients that have set budgets, and they are fully willing to skimp on the production to look like they are saving money, but then spend that moeny in post fixing things.

If the productions company barely had enough money to pay you, and balked at your prices, I wouldn't hold out to much hope for your crew.

Yes, I know the exact feeling of working with a tight knit crew that runs like a swiss watch. Its a phenomenal feeling and it really opens the clients eyes to how a production is SUPPOSED to work. But, the best you can do is hand over your list, and let them know that if they want it to go well, this is the crew they should hire. You can pitch for your crew if you feel you want to, I don't see anything wrong with that. I would make sure that your crew is OK with you negotiating their rates, though. You need to have a prior discussion with them, and find out their lowest amount they would be willing to take. Worse case scenario, is that what was already described above. You show up, do the best with what you have, and call it a wrap.

Or, if its a cool gig, and your crew is not busy, they show up on shoot day for free, and everyone is happy!
 
Hey, you could always choose to roll your crew into your price and make your stand with them, but expect that to go over like a fart in church.

That kind of solidarity may make a good impression with your guys, but to potential employers the negative connotations can be many; difficult, demanding, unskilled and co-dependent... You get the idea. I wouldn't be surprised to see them take you all on, and on the job court members of your crew to hire solo in place of you on the next gig.
 
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I have another potential coming up, so I will try something different. I have spoken with my crew and yeah, I think open communication with a hard sell on "spend money now, save money later" will be my direction. Thanks again for your input guys :)
 
I ran into this very situation from the producer side. I negotiated a deal with the DP involving including his crew. From there I discussed rates with each crew member so they were on the same page. In the end we landed at or close to their normal rate. Decision was mine to make sure the DP had the proper support to do his good work: and it is! In all honestly, I "beat up"* everyone else(non-camera) on rates and lucked out on getting a full crew who were happy to be there anyway.

*Beat up... meaning I was fairly solid on the very low rates I was offering, didn't budge much. "This is the deal...if it's too low for you then please don't take this gig."

Of course this was in Los Angeles so there is a big pool of people to draw from.
 
I have sat/will sit on both sides of the table on this staffing question..
as in.. I produce, and sometimes I am work for hire as a DoP

My practices are: Ask the DP who he wants, get their contact number, and tell both the DP and the AC the same numbers. The production company pays the laborers individually, because I would still be liable if anything happened to their compensation in between myself and them.

As a DP, I know what rates my preferred crew will or won't accept... and if the offer is ludicrous, I will make an effort to get it to what it takes to hire the crew I want.
I do not want to be the paymaster for my department. Its tough enough being the technical chief of it.
 
Mark Toia said:
When you get someone calling you from a production company and they have "no money" , but your happy to do the project for $XXX amount of dollars... then thats all you do, forget about doing anymore than exactly what they are paying you for.
The responsibility lies squarely on them 100% to organise the rest of the shoot, crew, gear etc... You just turn up with a smile on your face. [...] If you turn up and there are no lights, no grips gear, no crew... just you and a 5D.. then just do the best job you can with a smile on your face, Don't whinge about, just crack out the best you can, get paid and walk away knowing that you made a buck for the day and shot some cool images.

Always remembering, that you did them a favour and you were pleasant fast and wonderful to work with, you will more than likely get more work from them.
Do opposite to this.. and see what happens.

Welcome to the future...


Have fun. :)
Click to expand...

When I get the sense that this might be the case, I always make sure to set expectations way, way before shoot day. Something I learned from working in retail: if you tell people that the worse-case scenario is going to happen before they start to get visions in their head, then all you can do is exceed their expectations. And if you do that wildly, then they'll love you until the day they die. Not because you did amazing, but because you did amazing versus what they were expecting.

That being said, I'm also likely to turn down work if I think it's just a pit for my career. If a client isn't giving me the tools to succeed, and they expect only extreme success, and I give them bland footage because that's all that could be done on my budget and my gear without anything rented or anyone additional, well, that could be a problem. If I think a client has the ears of a lot of people, and they set me up to fail, I'd rather tell them that "I just can't do that low right now" or "Sorry, I'm booked those days", and walk away. I'm very much keeping my eyes on the horizon, and if word gets around town that I do bad work, that can cause me problems.

And hey, listen, if *I'm* the one that fucks up, I own it. If I fail, that's on me. No gear or crew will make up for my gaps in knowledge or talent. But I can't stand being set up to fail, despite doing everything I could have done, and despite trying to reset expectations to something reasonable, only to have word go around that I'm not worth the money. I'd rather lose the bird in the hand if it means 10 future birds in the bush.

It's all a judgement call, and so far it hasn't lead me to miss out on anything that I look back and think I should have done. But I've also been in the freelance world for about 6 months, and I guarantee you a misjudgment could/will bite me in the ass.
 
Nick Pasquariello said:
When I get the sense that this might be the case, I always make sure to set expectations way, way before shoot day. Something I learned from working in retail: if you tell people that the worse-case scenario is going to happen before they start to get visions in their head, then all you can do is exceed their expectations. And if you do that wildly, then they'll love you until the day they die. Not because you did amazing, but because you did amazing versus what they were expecting.

That being said, I'm also likely to turn down work if I think it's just a pit for my career. If a client isn't giving me the tools to succeed, and they expect only extreme success, and I give them bland footage because that's all that could be done on my budget and my gear without anything rented or anyone additional, well, that could be a problem. If I think a client has the ears of a lot of people, and they set me up to fail, I'd rather tell them that "I just can't do that low right now" or "Sorry, I'm booked those days", and walk away. I'm very much keeping my eyes on the horizon, and if word gets around town that I do bad work, that can cause me problems.

And hey, listen, if *I'm* the one that fucks up, I own it. If I fail, that's on me. No gear or crew will make up for my gaps in knowledge or talent. But I can't stand being set up to fail, despite doing everything I could have done, and despite trying to reset expectations to something reasonable, only to have word go around that I'm not worth the money. I'd rather lose the bird in the hand if it means 10 future birds in the bush.

It's all a judgement call, and so far it hasn't lead me to miss out on anything that I look back and think I should have done. But I've also been in the freelance world for about 6 months, and I guarantee you a misjudgment could/will bite me in the ass.
Click to expand...

:attention9ha:

To the first and last paragraph... I've been there and done that. It is sage advice.

I try to educate and prepare potential clients the moment they walk in the door, and if they sign I do my damnedest to over deliver.

I have also had sub contractors screw deals with wild quotes. It was totally on me of course. I should have known better and shopped more.
 
I think the same things Matthew talks about happen for all department heads. We want our crews to be properly paid and taken care of, but at the same time, we can't make the negotiation for them.

Whatever you do, get it in writing. I've experienced situations where I thought we were at one level, but due to ambiguity in a casual conversation or an email, we ran into budget disputes on down the line.

Some good general things to make sure get in the deal memo (particularly for low-budget indies or shorts):

1. pay rate per day (labor + equipment rental)

2. what specific equipment you'll be providing

3. daily charge for expendables (batteries, etc.)

4. dates/locations scheduled

5. additional charges for extra equipment

6. number of hours worked at straight time, then O.T. after a certain number of hours

7. minimum turnaround time between consecutive days (12 on/12 off)

8. production insurance covering department's gear (replacement cost)

9. loss & damage coverage for incidentals

10. who transports gear (production or employee)

11. mileage paid above a certain distance

12. due date for payment (weekly?)

"Real" production companies do this as a matter of course, and some of these issues are etched in stone for union shows. Newbies and ultra-lows are a lot flakier to deal with. Many are nice people but just not quite aware of the realities of production, avoiding disputes, and paying a fair wage for a day's work.

And just to put in a good word for the sound department: if you don't pay for good sound during the shoot, you may find yourself paying even more to try to fix it later. A good sound department also looks out for the camera department, particularly in terms of timecode, wireless hops, slates, and so on.
 
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