Which monitor choice (REC 709, REDSpace, RAW) actually looks the the proxies?

[Stephen Pruitt]

Hi all. . .

All of these new choices in the later builds. . .



I saw a huge bit of difference in the image as we shifted from REC 709 to REDSpace to RAW in the studio today, and I'm curious which one of these is SUPPOSED to look the most like the proxy image that I pull off the camera and drop into Final Cut? We bypass all of REDAlert, etc. and just edit off proxies, so I'm curious which one of these three choices is supposed to look the most like the proxy images.

Thanks much.

Stephen

 

[M Most]

I saw a huge bit of difference in the image as we shifted from REC 709 to REDSpace to RAW in the studio today, and I'm curious which one of these is SUPPOSED to look the most like the proxy image that I pull off the camera and drop into Final Cut? We bypass all of REDAlert, etc. and just edit off proxies, so I'm curious which one of these three choices is supposed to look the most like the proxy images.

Whichever one was set on the camera when the material was shot - in most cases, either Rec709 or Redspace. But to be sure, you'll need to ask whoever shot the material if it's not you.

One of the weaknesses in the current system is that the gamma and color space settings cannot be changed. They are part of the R3d metadata and cannot be overridden in the RSX file that is created by Red Alert. No matter how many other changes you make, those values (as set on the camera) are always used by the Quicktime proxies.

 

[Stephen Pruitt]

OOHHHHHHH. . . so the camera uses those settings to change the actual recorded look of the proxies?

Then I suppose I should have asked the question a different way: If we are strictly editing the proxies, which monitor choice should we be using? They were NIGHT AND DAY different in feel.

And then, suddenly, this question comes to me: Since we are trying to match footage shot in Build 15 last year, which one of the three choices will best match proxies shot on Build 15? I swear, I don't remember these choices in Build 15 last year, but, then again, we started shooting the film almost the very day that the camera showed up!

Thanks!

Stephen

 

[M Most]

And then, suddenly, this question comes to me: Since we are trying to match footage shot in Build 15 last year, which one of the three choices will best match proxies shot on Build 15? I swear, I don't remember these choices in Build 15 last year, but, then again, we started shooting the film almost the very day that the camera showed up!

As I recall, Redspace was introduced with Build 16, so Rec709 would have been the likely setting. But I think you're misunderstanding what I said. It's not a matter of "matching" something that came before. The setting on the camera is what is going to be used by the proxies, even if you change settings in Red Alert and re-make new ones. Whatever that was, you're stuck with. The only way to change it is to transcode to a different format. Now, maybe I'm misunderstanding you and and you're actually asking what to set on the camera for new material that has yet to be shot. In that case, I would say Rec709 is your likely best candidate.

 

[Steve Sherrick]

Yes, this has been the biggest trouble I have faced with the Proxie method of post. I prefer the gamma of REC709 since most of what I shoot is destined for that space, but I have found that REC709 color space to not be my cup of tea. Unfortunately, as Mike mentioned, you are locked into both the REC709 Color Space and Gamma when you use that as your view mode in camera. As of right now, there is no undoing this, even if you change it in Clipfinder/Red Alert and create new proxies. I have been hoping for a fix to this as it would actually be very useful for certain projects to be edited and finished with the 2K proxies. But the color space makes me usually finish with other methods.

 

[Noah Kadner]

Yeah it's weird- the exposure settings change but not the Color and Gamma spaces.

-Noah

 

[Steve Sherrick]

Now, I can say that I have talked to Mark Troia (Big T) and his workflow does involved a proxie finish a lot of times. He gets around the color space issues by doing essentially a first light correction on his footage in FCP to get rid of some of the ugliness that can show up in REC709 color space. He just balances it out and then proceeds to do his edit and finish in FCP on a majority of his projects. If you have seen his reel, he's got some great looking commercials on there, many that never left FCP. But, Mark's a great shooter too, so he's starting off with really nice material.

 

[Steve Sherrick]

Actually you're not locked in to the color space you shot at. All you have to do is load a shot in RED Alert!, change the Color and Gamma Settings to what you want and then Make new Proxies. You can always go back to the camera settings by hitting the default button. And the best part is if you are working with the Proxies in FCP for example they will automatically relink with the new settings as long as you keep the directories in the same place.

-Noah

Not true Noah, unless this has happened just recently and I didn't know about it. Just about everything will update, except Color Space and curves.

 

[Steve Sherrick]

Yeah it's weird- the exposure settings change but not the Color and Gamma spaces.

-Noah

I know, if those two functions were transferred over as well, it would be very tempting to do even more finishes with the proxies in FCP on some of my jobs that don't need every last ounce of quality. I actually don't mind grading with a combination of Colorista, 3 Way, and a few effects plugins right in FCP. Now, for tricky secondaries, and the utmost control over every last pixel of the image, that's better suited to a grading app and an experienced colorist. But I can sometimes get by right in FCP. So, I welcome the ability to update those proxies if RED is able to do it.

 

[Stephen Pruitt]

Okay. . . so I should be running in REC709. Is there any way that I can open my old files and see for sure? It is really important that the look matches.

This is very, very puzzling, and a totally new aspect of the camera I have never had to deal with before. . .

So, again, is there any way I can be certain what I used before?

Stephen

 

[M Most]

Okay. . . so I should be running in REC709. Is there any way that I can open my old files and see for sure? It is really important that the look matches.

Open any of the shots in Red Alert and it will tell you what the settings were.

 

[Stephen Pruitt]

Okay, great. . .

Thanks so much!

Stephen