Where to Post? rumors....

[stephan orlandic]

If You have the money,
there is absolutely no competition to COMPANY3 or EFILM.
They have 95% of worlds best colorists.
And maybe second most important thing, which many people here are not aware of,
or don't care : some real COLOR SCIENCE.

Disclaimer:
I don't work for either of them or get any money for advertising.
Just my personal observation after years in DI.

 

[M Most]

If You have the money,
there is absolutely no competition to COMPANY3 or EFILM.
They have 95% of worlds best colorists.
And maybe second most important thing, which many people here are not aware of,
or don't care : some real COLOR SCIENCE.

At the highest end of which you're talking about - the end that either says "money is no object" or "I'm going to make 8000 release prints so you'll give me a very stiff discount," I would say that Technicolor is the third of the "big three." If you look at the major studio pictures, they are essentially all finished in one of those three facilities if they're done in Los Angeles (which the vast, vast majority are). There is also the in-house facility at Warner Brothers. But if you happen to be in London, there are a number of very worthy competitors there as well.

Of course, there are a multitude of other players, any of whom can do a great job. Some (Hollywood Intermediate, IO Film, Hollywood DI) have been mentioned already. Others, such as FotoKem, Encore, and Laser Pacific have not (all of which, by the way, also incorporate "real" color science). Until now.

 

[jake blackstone]

If You have the money,
there is absolutely no competition to COMPANY3 or EFILM.
They have 95% of worlds best colorists.
And maybe second most important thing, which many people here are not aware of,
or don't care : some real COLOR SCIENCE.

Disclaimer:
I don't work for either of them or get any money for advertising.
Just my personal observation after years in DI.

I truly dislike these blanket statements, that reminds me of my old country- USSR. May be you need to start think different after all these years in DI?
EFilm is actually part of a much larger company Delux, so you would need to include Delux then too. So is the Company 3, which is owned by Accent Media, I think.
"They have some real COLOR SCIENCE"? And nobody else does? Based on what information? Couple of examples. Laser Pacific is actually now owned by another little company, that I think invented the art of color science-Kodak. Another example, this time a second tier company- Post Logic has a full time color scientist on stuff, that does nothing, but performs color science. Nobody at the high end or even on the second tier can afford not to have a color scientist on stuff, THEY ALL DO! One of my best friends works as a producer at one of the BIG THREE and they too from time to time have quality problems. And yes, clients walk away even from them.
There are great and talented colorists everywhere. Saying, that 95% of the best colorists in the world work at only those two companies is doing great disservice to great talent in London, Paris and other less glamorous places in LA and NY. Recently Lou Levinson had joined Laser Pacific. I can't think of another more seminal colorist figure, that I had personally known. He had worked with most of Hollywood royalty-Steven Spielberg and Paul Thomas Anderson, cinematographers Vittorio Storaro, Janusz Kaminski, Allen Daviau. He graded Apocalypse Now, E.T. the Extra-Terrestrial, Saving Private Ryan, Forrest Gump, Schindler's List, Jurassic Park, Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade. Should he be included in the list of world's best?
How about Dave Cole? His credits include Lord of the Rings and King Kong. I think Lord of the Rings was the first DI done on Lustre, when it was still called Cyborg. Should we include him? And this is just one company. 95%? More like 1%...
Anyway, my point was, that there are lots of great places, that do excellent job and don't cost an arm and a leg. Just so you have an idea, the average DI job at the Big Three is $250,000. In the age of RED Camera I believe it's finally time when we can start breaking old post production stereotypes and stop paying so much attention to the expensive label.

 

[M Most]

EFilm is actually part of a much larger company Delux, so you would need to include Delux then too. So is the Company 3, which is owned by Accent Media, I think.

And Technicolor is also part of a larger entity (Thomson). And Laser Pacific is owned by, yes, Kodak. Post Logic is owned by a much larger company from India. Encore is part of Ascent. IO Film is owned by Lightning Media. And Riot is also part of Ascent.

Truth is, there are not a lot of independently owned companies operating at the high end of the industry anymore. Although some of the ones mentioned are in this category (Hollywood Intermediate, Hollywood DI, FotoKem, and Modern Videofilm, which I neglected to mention), the great majority of the larger players are not. Which is one of the reasons they're the larger players.

Laser Pacific is actually now owned by another little company, that I think invented the art of color science-Kodak.

Kodak practically invented and holds nearly every patent on modern color science. They invented the Cineon format and system. Enough said.

One of my best friends works as a producer at one of the BIG THREE and they too from time to time have quality problems. And yes, clients walk away even from them.

Quite true. Even the highest end cameramen and directors have worked at different facilities on different projects.

...Lou Levinson ...Dave Cole? His credits include Lord of the Rings and King Kong. I think Lord of the Rings was the first DI done on Lustre, when it was still called Cyborg...

Lou and I started at about the same time, and in my opinion, he is probably the single most talented colorist the industry's ever had. Having Lou and Dave is quite a coup for Laser Pacific.

One correction, though: Lustre evolved from Colossus, not Cyborg. Cyborg was a compositing program, a competitor to Flame, although both products were marketed by the same company (the late 5D).

 

[stephan orlandic]

At the highest end of which you're talking about - the end that either says "money is no object" or "I'm going to make 8000 release prints so you'll give me a very stiff discount," I would say that Technicolor is the third of the "big three." If you look at the major studio pictures, they are essentially all finished in one of those three facilities if they're done in Los Angeles (which the vast, vast majority are). There is also the in-house facility at Warner Brothers. But if you happen to be in London, there are a number of very worthy competitors there as well.

Of course, there are a multitude of other players, any of whom can do a great job. Some (Hollywood Intermediate, IO Film, Hollywood DI) have been mentioned already. Others, such as FotoKem, Encore, and Laser Pacific have not (all of which, by the way, also incorporate "real" color science). Until now.

Hi,
I couldn't agree more and couldn't say it better.
I was just writing down those other names which You mentioned,
and than I saw that You have already wrote them.

I have placed those two names only,
because I was little bit in a hurry,
so didn't have time to to write all the things down.


No disrespect here meant.
BUT, I had to react on this topic,
since it really bothers me that "yesterdays" post companies,
and many self promoted RED experts,
are being many times here advertised as POST and Grading and DI leaders.

And their whole post studio usually cost less
than DP90, or even worse less than a Trulight system.
Or the idea of grading big feature on a sub 10k projector.

Yes, it could be easy to deliver sd or hd for TV,
but the hole DI for a feature is something You don't learn over night (or one year).

 

[jake blackstone]

One correction, though: Lustre evolved from Colossus, not Cyborg. Cyborg was a compositing program, a competitor to Flame, although both products were marketed by the same company (the late 5D).

You're correct, it's Collosus, not Cyborg, but I would like to point out, that Collossus was actually developed by the Hungarian company Colorfront, which was acquired by 5D. 5D ran out of money and sold it's intellectual property to Autodesk, which wrapped it all into the Lustre and according to Assimilate they never seen it

 

[stephan orlandic]

5D has never owned COLOSSUS.
It was just been sold under name 5D but all property was COLORFRONT, BUDAPEST.
Only CYBORG and COMMANDER were sold as source codes to Discreet.
Discreet also wasn't owner of Lustre until 3 years ago.
The main programmer of Cyborg code is now the main man behind the Scratch code.

 

[M Most]

5D has never owned COLOSSUS.
It was just been sold under name 5D but all property was COLORFRONT, BUDAPEST.

I said MARKETED, not owned. And I said that on purpose.

Only CYBORG and COMMANDER were sold as source codes to Discreet.
Discreet also wasn't owner of Lustre until 3 years ago.

Although that's true, it's irrelevant because Discreet/Autodesk got the source code when they bought Colorfront.

The main programmer of Cyborg code is now the main man behind the Scratch code.

Yes, that programmer is Gerk, and that is true.

 

[M Most]

Yes, it could be easy to deliver sd or hd for TV...

Really? Try color correcting a one hour, single camera drama in 12 hours - at a level close to perfection - and then tell me how easy it is.

 

[jake blackstone]

Really? Try color correcting a one hour, single camera drama in 12 hours - at a level close to perfection - and then tell me how easy it is.

In Orlando's defense, I think, he meant the Rec_709 color science and not the grading part. Said that, I do have a bone to pick with Orlando.
Isn't it ironic, that here we are writing on the RED user forum, forum dedicated to the product built by the company, that had based it's whole foundation on breaking stereotypes, such as film cameras and lenses HAVE to be expensive in order to be of good quality. Film camera makers pretty much succeeded in reducing the choice to big two or three. And all of a sudden here comes RED and single handily smashes this whole good old boys club and creates a brand new business and artistic model. So, isn't it high time, that post business follows the same path? Olrlando. Aren't you still clinging to the same old school of thought, that in order to be good, it has to be expensive? All those high end places just keeps doing the same old thing. They just keep buying those very expensive toys, that are totally unnecessary for the electronically acquired file based workflow. Yes, I know, that their main stay is film work and that is why they have to that. But then, should RED community feel obligated to continue patronize those establishments, that are technologically and financially biased against RED workflow? It is obvious, like it or not, that every time they do a RED based project, you're still paying for all those not utilized scanners, telecines, tape machines, routers, printers and all other very expensive stuff. And don't forget the most expensive part of this equation- the full time talent. I know of one color scientist, that everyone calls behind his back Sleeping Beauty And he is more expensive, than any colorist! In Europe many colorists, just like compositors and editors here, work on freelance basis. They finish the job and just move on to the next one in an another facility or another country. Not here, because the post businesses here see no reason to change. I feel, that we all need to start to think different about post. So, how about a new business model in post? I'm ready. How about you?

 

[stephan orlandic]

Really? Try color correcting a one hour, single camera drama in 12 hours - at a level close to perfection - and then tell me how easy it is.

I seems that I was not clear enough.
I wasn't thinking about grading,
I meant it "could" be easier to match Your viewing enviroment and calibrate Your monitor, and get results which will be not be catastrophically different than monitoring on TV broadcaster or viewing it on some delivery sd/hd format in some serious post house.

Unlike grading for DI, with noncalibrated monitor, noncontrolable enviroment,
and assuming that Your lin-log conversion on ARRILASER will do magic.

 

[David Cummins]

Hello Kray,

I'm shocked to hear about Michael. He's an incredibly bright, innovative and resourceful fellow. I'm sure he's off to some new cutting edge venture and we'll all hear from him soon. PCP is a great house but I can help you find a solid alternative if you feel so inclined.

Best,

Dave

 

[David Cummins]

Hello Kray,

I'm shocked to hear about Michael. He's an incredibly bright, innovative and resourceful fellow. I'm sure he's off to some new cutting edge venture and we'll all hear from him soon. PCP is a great house but I can help you find a solid alternative if you feel so inclined.

Best,

Dave

 

[Peter Moretti]

...How about Dave Cole? His credits include Lord of the Rings and King Kong. I think Lord of the Rings was the first DI done on Lustre, when it was still called Cyborg. Should we include him? ...

Jake,

I realize this is a highjack, but I was wondering if you'd comment on some of the grading in Lord of the Rings? No disrespect to Mr. Cole, but I found many of the shots to be mismatched by a wide margin. And I don't mean the visual effects shots but rather reversals not matching each other or the master in terms of warmth, light direction or time of day. This was most noticeable with some of the outdoor scenes.

I'm wondering if you saw the same thing and if you'd care to comment.

Thanks.

 

[Jeff Klitzner]

PlasterCITY

PlasterCITY

Although it is true Michael Cioni is no longer employed by PlasterCITY, for you and PlasterCITY clients, this means we are entering a new phase in our drive to lead the way in the development and execution of digital workflow solutions for Postproduction.

In the coming few weeks, PlasterCITY will be introducing highly talented additions to our already multifaceted team of creative and dedicated individuals.

Our Technology Innovators are adding several new features to our Digital Workflow process. One being a dedicated Quantel IQ system for more efficient, streamlined conforms of your DI projects. Stereoscopic 3D editing on Final Cut Pro to compliment our current 3D DI workflow. We also have added a 4K projection system to our DI Theater allowing screening of both 4K and 2K content.

Our commitment to continue providing the highest level of quality and service is relentless and unwavering. PlasterCITY is a strong solvent company with a corporate hierarchy that understands the needs of Hollywood filmmakers and media producers. We will continue to dedicate all the resources necessary to provide you with the tools, talent and accommodations you've come to expect when bringing your projects to PlasterCITY.

We at PlasterCITY encourage you to bring your project to our facility. You won't be dissapointed.

Please feel free to contact me any time.

Sincerely,

Jeff Klitzner
Director of Operations
PlasterCITY Digital Post, L.L.C.
6500 Sunset Blvd.
Hollywood, CA 90028
p: 323.469.9800
f: 323.462.4620
c: 818.402.4561
www.plastercitypost.com

 

[Evangelos Achillopoulos]

some real COLOR SCIENCE

Let me define what "real color science" is...

Imagine a DI house working with a 25K$ investemnt as a color grading tool (thats Color with tangent and a 700$ monitor), sending a disk with the .DPX's, flying half the globe (being away from the lab 20000 miles), do the filmrecording, print the positive in Vision Premiere (the most difficult film to ride), having the DoP and the director flying over just to realize that they don't want to touch anything... the film is perfect from the zero copy...

Its needless to say that the DoP and the director didn't believe there eyes... The image is stunning, exactly as they were seeing it in the DI house 20000 miles away... So clapping, hags, happiness and a feeling of stress relief is everywhere after the projection...

That's what I call, real color science...

All our partners are having that result...

And thats in proper Log DI workflow... we aren't speaking poor man's DI with tapes and REC709... we talking about the real thing! Grading for Vision Premiere it means that you have to be able to handle more than 13 stops of latitude while grading... with normally velvet looking blacks and not excessive saturation...

I just wanted to say it...

 

[jake blackstone]

Jake,

I realize this is a highjack, but I was wondering if you'd comment on some of the grading in Lord of the Rings? No disrespect to Mr. Cole, but I found many of the shots to be mismatched by a wide margin. And I don't mean the visual effects shots but rather reversals not matching each other or the master in terms of warmth, light direction or time of day. This was most noticeable with some of the outdoor scenes.

I'm wondering if you saw the same thing and if you'd care to comment.

Thanks.

Hi Peter.
I would love to give you my take on the subject, but after seeing the film in 2001 and haven't seen it since, I really don't remember anymore. But in his defense, at the time (1999-2000) Colorfront system was very much work in progress, so I would give him a fair amount of leeway. Too many things could have gone wrong at that time.. I recently saw Dave Cole's demo at the last NAB and came away very impressed with his talent, depth of knowledge and most important his willingness to share some of his grading tricks.

 

[Jeff Klitzner]

That was my understanding too.

any truth to this?[/QUOTE]

It is true that Michael Cioni is no longer employed by PlasterCITY (he did not own the place).
PlasterCITY is a strong solvent company with amazing talent, technology and a vast understanding of the digital workflow. Please feel free to call us, we have much to offer.
Jeff Klitzner
Director of Operations

 

[Jeff Klitzner]

Hey Everybody,
I have just finished shooting my first RED project and I am now looking for a facility to post it (offline / online / color / sound)

I have been lurking here for awhile and it seemed to me that the best place to go would be Plaster City... here is where the rumors come in!! I have heard that they recently lost some key personal??? is this true? and if so where should I take my project? I have spent alot of time and money and I am very passionate about it and I want to make sure it gets the attention it deserves.

thoughts?

thanks
_________________

Kray
Kray,
You can feel confident in bringing your project to PlasterCITY. Our Team of Talent and Innovators will help you every step of the way. Pleas call myself, Paul Geffre or Katie Fellion.
Jeff Klitzner (323 469-9800
Director of Operations

 

[Neil W. Smith]

RED finishing services in LA ...

RED finishing services in LA ...

Hey Everybody,
I have just finished shooting my first RED project and I am now looking for a facility to post it (offline / online / color / sound)

Kray,

I hope by now you'll have realized that there are many professional and competent post houses in LA that can handle RED footage and give you a great finished product ... no one company (or individual for that matter) has a monopoly on RED knowledge or expertise - that would be totally against RED's philosophy of democratizing the filmmaking process and demystifying file based workflow.

We did an article last year with Ted Schilowitz for POST magazine about our DI-flex approach to RED workflow ..... I'll quote Ted's own words on the approach at Hollywood-DI:

Schilowitz calls the DI-flex finishing
approach developed at HDI “efficient and elegant.
It’s totally in keeping with Red’s philosophy,”
he says. “A 4K workflow that’s logical, simple
and useable was key to our goals at Red, and
Hollywood-DI is perfectly suited for this nextgen
toolset.”

Here's the link to the POST article with the full story:

http://www.hollywooddi.com/downloads/HDI_PostMag.pdf

So, if you're looking to finish your movie to a high standard in LA, you have plenty of choices .... give us a call and we'll talk through the options ... you might be surprised at how affordable our DI-flex approach is for independent filmmakers.

Cheers,
Neil