Where do Europeans buy their RED's?

[Josh Snyder]

Prices on RED UK are 10% higher than the best $ to € conversion you can find on-line but I think they're really fair.

So 10,000$ thing is around 11,000$ in RED UK (including the +20% VAT)?

 

[Kristin Stewart]

If you're an European Community customer (not UK) and buy from RED England you need to register yourself as a Intracommunitarian Operator (I don't know the exact English word for it) to don´t pay VAT.

That's not totally right. In fact you don't pay the VAT of your import country, but you're obliged to pay the VAT of your own country, if you declare your business of course ;-) It can be interesting depending of the difference of VAT.

My concerns are only about ship back the cameras to L.A. for repair/upgrade but as far as we didn't import them from US we'll be unable to temporary export them so I imagine that RED UK will deal with it in case of a repair/upgrade and it's not a bad news.

In fact it's a huge concern. I know several persons who've run into this trouble of being obliged to send back their Red to LA for repair. A lot of trouble with customs. And several of these people couldn't get the help from Red London, as they've been said that Red Europe can't do temporary exports to LA and they couldn't repair the camera in London. Most of these people unfortunaley ended up by selling their Red because of that. Paperwork and taxes is a huge concern, and you realize it only once you have to face it ;-)

 

[Josh Snyder]

You can't really compare Finland and Germany, it's not the same size of country in terms of population and economic activity (5 millions of people, half of the population in and around Paris). I have a friend who lives in Scotland. He pays all his taxes, just like everyone else. And in Scotland, it's still pounds, not euros ;-) Currency conversions aren't free, unfortunately ;-)

Sure you can. There are many small countries in big trouble too in Europe. It all comes down how good job the country does with its economy.

I've bought stuff form him too and I'm sure he gets the stuff into his country without additional costs. Maybe it was some other country than US then. Canon products were usually "white box" stuff.

 

[Josh Snyder]

In fact it's a huge concern. I know several persons who've run into this trouble of being obliged to send back their Red to LA for repair. A lot of trouble with customs. And several of these people couldn't get the help from Red London, as they've been said that Red Europe can't do temporary exports to LA and they couldn't repair the camera in London. Most of these people unfortunaley ended up by selling their Red because of that.

Ouch, might rethink this purchase again then. Just read from the website they don't have EPIC repair service in UK.

 

[Kristin Stewart]

Josh, I don't want to frighten you, you should contact Alan Piper before, but it's a huge concern. Where are you located ?

Edit : to be totally fair, this temporary export is not really a problem with Red, it's a problem with Fedex. It seems that, depending of your European country, Fedex is just a huge pain in the ***. Just search for Fedex on this forum to get an idea ;-)

I also suggested to Red to offer different shipping possibilities to avoid that. Fedex, UPS, DHL, etc...

 

[Carlo Rho]

That's not totally right. In fact you don't pay the VAT of your import country, but you're obliged to pay the VAT of your own country, if you declare your business of course ;-) It can be interesting depending of the difference of VAT.

You don't have to pay VAT in your country and as far as you didn't pay it you can't subtract that VAT from your invoces VAT so it's a cash liquidity vantage not a real discount.

In fact it's a huge concern. I know several persons who've run into this trouble of being obliged to send back their Red to LA for repair. A lot of trouble with customs. And several of these people couldn't get the help from Red London, as they've been said that Red Europe can't do temporary exports to LA and they couldn't repair the camera in London. Most of these people unfortunaley ended up by selling their Red because of that. Paperwork and taxes is a huge concern, and you realize it only once you have to face it ;-)

I faced temporary export to US and I get my R1 upgraded, a lot of paper work or a Custom Agent (as I did). I have friends that paid VAT again reimporting their REDones just because they didn't care when they ship the camera to LA. If someone sell is Redone for it it's better if he look to a paied job instead try to be an entrepreneur.
The other possibility is to prepare the ATA paperwork as you're going to shoot in the US, then go to RED have the camera repaired and flight back with it. Every crew that shoot outside Europe has to do the same paperwork, more simple but still expensive (40% deposit and flight ticket)
RED UK can't handle temporary exportation of R1 because they didn't import then (customers did). With Epic as far as they invoice them as a UK company they will have to deal with it and not having an Epic Repair Centre

 

[Steve Johnson]

Ouch, might rethink this purchase again then. Just read from the website they don't have EPIC repair service in UK.

Yet!!!

As others have said, speak to Alan Piper at RED Europe before you make any decision. A quick phone call and I suspect you will have all your questions answered.

As for no EPIC repairs service in the UK, with the huge amount of EPIC's hitting / about to hit through Europe, I somehow think this will be happening. I got to know a few of the guys at RED Europe whilst teaching at REDucation UK in September and I can tell you, I have no issues with buying my Stage 4 EPIC from RED Europe and if needed, sending it back to them for any repairs. Alan and his team are top notch as other have stated.

Give them a call and I suspect as a lot of your questions will be answered very quickly.

 

[Kristin Stewart]

Carlo, I never said that the people who ended up selling their Reds were entrepeneurs, in fact they're top-list film directors. Some of them like to own a Red camera for their own projects.

As far as VAT goes, well, it seems to depend on the country then, because here, in France, companies declare VAT and import/exports. I'm not renting cameras, but I'm dealing with VAT problems everyday. Maybe the authorities are more tolerant in Spain ? Just kidding ;-)

 

[Steve Johnson]

Finland has least debt if I remember right.

There's this guy "kerso" who sells Canon stuff for very cheap prices compared to European pricing. He is located in Scotland if I remember right and his partner buys and sends Canon products from US to him tax free (if I remember right he doesn't have to pay anything because Scotland and US have some dealing "deal" or what ever) and then sells them to European customers, which of course don't have to pay any taxes and duties because Scotland is part of the UK.

I'm based in Scotland, and I've never heard of an agreement between Scotland and the US that negates the need to pay tax (import or VAT). We pay the same import tax and Vat as the rest of the UK - and I've done a fair amount of importing myself over the years...

Although, I would like to know who he is as I am looking at Canon Gear for my EPIC-X when it arrives!!!

You can't really compare Finland and Germany, it's not the same size of country in terms of population and economic activity (5 millions of people, half of the population in and around Paris). I have a friend who lives in Scotland. He pays all his taxes, just like everyone else. And in Scotland, it's still pounds, not euros ;-) Currency conversions aren't free, unfortunately ;-)

Yup Kristin, your right - we here in Scotland do have pounds (although we have our own brand of pounds!!!) We all pay taxes here in Scotland the same. If someone can find me the loop hole, then I'm more than happy to let my accountant look into into ;-)

 

[Steve Johnson]

Finland has least debt if I remember right.

There's this guy "kerso" who sells Canon stuff for very cheap prices compared to European pricing. He is located in Scotland if I remember right and his partner buys and sends Canon products from US to him tax free (if I remember right he doesn't have to pay anything because Scotland and US have some dealing "deal" or what ever) and then sells them to European customers, which of course don't have to pay any taxes and duties because Scotland is part of the UK.

You can't really compare Finland and Germany, it's not the same size of country in terms of population and economic activity (5 millions of people, half of the population in and around Paris). I have a friend who lives in Scotland. He pays all his taxes, just like everyone else. And in Scotland, it's still pounds, not euros ;-) Currency conversions aren't free, unfortunately ;-)

Carlo, I never said that the people who ended up selling their Reds were entrepeneurs, in fact they're top-list film directors. Some of them like to own a Red camera for their own projects.

As far as VAT goes, well, it seems to depend on the country then, because here, in France, companies declare VAT and import/exports. I'm not renting cameras, but I'm dealing with VAT problems everyday. Maybe the authorities are more tolerant in Spain ? Just kidding ;-)

So Kristin, if RED Europe imports for you, do you pay the import tax and just not pay the UK VAT of 20%, but then pay the French version of VAT?

 

[Kristin Stewart]

Let's say I'm buying a Red from Red Europe. Even if they're giving me an invoice in Euros, unless they have a bank account in the Euro zone, I will have to pay the camera in Pounds. If I have a European VAT number (and UK companies can have one too, even if they're not in the Euro zone), I won't pay for the 20% UK tax. But when I will declare the transaction to the French State, I will declare the import, and depending on the way my company has chosen to handle VAT (there are different VAT handling systems here) I will pay or not the VAT corresponding to the gear (19.6% here). It's quite tricky in fact, and it's better to have an accounter here ;-)

I would add that depending on the dollar-euro (or Pounds if you're in the UK) ratio, it would be more interesting to import directly from the US than buying at Red Europe, even if you're paying the customs taxes, as you won't be charged two times for the currency conversion.

Finally, I agree with Carlo, it's better to have a Custom Agent, but it's not free ;-)

 

[hans de vries]

Alan Piper told me that if you have a (local) VAT number RED Uk won't charge you VAT. Further, at one time I send my Red drive back to California; I don't remember exactly how it went but I had to fill in some forms about sending back the thing for repairs and there was no trouble. And as for a new Red center Europe: consider Amsterdam! Great distribution, loads of fun, ridiculously low taxes for businesses!

 

[Steve Johnson]

Let's say I'm buying a Red from Red Europe. Even if they're giving me an invoice in Euros, unless they have a bank account in the Euro zone, I will have to pay the camera in Pounds. If I have a European VAT number (and UK companies can have one too, even if they're not in the Euro zone), I won't pay for the 20% UK tax. But when I will declare the transaction to the French State, I will declare the import, and depending on the way my company has chosen to handle VAT (there are different VAT handling systems here) I will pay or not the VAT corresponding to the gear (19.6% here). It's quite tricky in fact, and it's better to have an accounter here ;-)

I would add that depending on the dollar-euro (or Pounds if you're in the UK) ratio, it would be more interesting to import directly from the US than buying at Red Europe, even if you're paying the customs taxes, as you won't be charged two times for the currency conversion.

Finally, I agree with Carlo, it's better to have a Custom Agent, but it's not free ;-)

Very interesting Kristin. Thanks for that information. I guess if it was easy, everyone would be doing it. Sound advise on the accountant. It always pays whatever country your in to have one. My accountant has been brilliant on that front.

I have no issues with going through RED Europe as I would rather them deal with all the import tax issues and just give me the price that I need to pay them. That way, I can prove to HMRC here in the UK that everything is legit and above board. Besides, if anything does go wrong with gear, and it needs to be sent back to the US, RED Europe sort all that out so you don't need to pay additional import taxes.

 

[Steve Johnson]

Alan Piper told me that if you have a (local) VAT number RED Uk won't charge you VAT. Further, at one time I send my Red drive back to California; I don't remember exactly how it went but I had to fill in some forms about sending back the thing for repairs and there was no trouble. And as for a new Red center Europe: consider Amsterdam! Great distribution, loads of fun, ridiculously low taxes for businesses; hardly any euro trouble here; in fact some newspaper here just published the fact that the euro crisis is a bonus worth 7.5 billion euros because of extremely low rent on loans for the Dutch!

Hans,

I still think you have to pay VAT. I know that being based in the UK, Alan would invoice me the cost of the equipment which includes the import tax giving me a NET figure, then they will add VAT (20%) to the price. I would then pay the GROSS price then reclaim the VAT at the end of the quarter...

Or do I miss understand you?

 

[hans de vries]

hey Steve,
what I assume he meant was that if you have a local VAT number you're going to pay the local vat, in my case 19%, and not the british vat

 

[Steve Johnson]

hey Steve,
what I assume he meant was that if you have a local VAT number you're going to pay the local vat, in my case 19%, and not the british vat

That makes sense. I would assume that if you are outside the UK this means that you pay your own countries VAT or similar and not the UK VAT.

 

[Carlo Rho]

Carlo, I never said that the people who ended up selling their Reds were entrepeneurs, in fact they're top-list film directors. Some of them like to own a Red camera for their own projects.

As far as VAT goes, well, it seems to depend on the country then, because here, in France, companies declare VAT and import/exports. I'm not renting cameras, but I'm dealing with VAT problems everyday. Maybe the authorities are more tolerant in Spain ? Just kidding ;-)

Well if they are top-list director why they don't hire a custom agent? They're quite cheap and knows everything they need about import/export, the temporary export of my 2 REDones cost me 300 or 400€ of custom agent fee, a top-list director (at least in commercials) earns it por hour!
VAT rules are the same for all Europe and in Spain they're not tolerant, they have one of the biggest IT structure in Europe to make cross checking on taxes.
If you buy something in another EU country (at least € countries +UK) and you're registered as Intra Community Operator (I don't know this legal expression in English) you have to declare it to the seller and he'll invoice you without VAT. Then when you declare it to your country you can subtract the value of the good you bought from your base earnings but not the VAT from the VAT that your clients had paid you (simply because you didn't pay it!).
I'm sure about this process because I bought many things from Apple (web-store only) in this way and I invoiced MTV Italy without VAT and this companies don't do "funny" financial things at your convenience.
Kristin could you tell to the top list directors that their camera is @ ILL and they can call me for every kind of projects! ;-)

 

[Debbie Fischer]

Very interesting thread. Its helped me understand a lot what I will be up against when I order my cameras.

I am glad that I don't have to import from the US though that is a godsend.

I'll work out all the other niggles along the way.

 

[Kristin Stewart]

Carlo, I won't fight with you about VAT rules , I love Spain too much ;-)

About the directors I mentioned before : most of them are feature film directors. Some are directing a commercial here and there when they need it, but when they bought their Red, it was to own one for their own projects, mostly indy/arty. Of course the production company is renting for the pro work. They're normal guys, with wife/children/dog problems ;-) And for some of them, 400 euros are a lot of money, especially if you have to pay this several times everytime you're stuck into a foreign country with your poor dead Red ;-)

To summerize, in fact Red is facing the very same problem as other companies have to face when you rely on almost exclusively on internet shipping and repair at distance. It would be nice if they could open more little shops here and there. One in the Euro zone, one in India, in China, in Japan, in Africa, etc... Not to forget our New-Zeland/australian friends, even if they're probably going to kick our ass next sunday ;-)

 

[G Lap]

If you order and buy from RED Europe you are invoiced and pay (in the UK) in £'s, inclusive. In my experience final prices seem to be comparable to US prices + sales tax.

Taking a risk and illegally slipping expensive stuff in past customs is all fine and dandy but, apart from any servicing/warranty/insurance considerations, if you're nabbed you'll either have to pay the duty plus a penalty charge or, worse, have your item confiscated and be charged with an offence. An individual decision......but know the risks involved.

I agree with the other Steve that using RED Europe (certainly here in the UK) is a great option.