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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

when you have to shoot - shoot. dont talk. (was RED IS DEAD)

Generally there's no hard line where something isn't ready and then it is ready. There is only a period of integration into a wide variety of mainstream production and post-production systems and techniques, assuming the basic technical bugs have been worked out of the camera and recording technology. So it's silly to write-off RED just because of a technical problem. We're only in the first year of increasingly widespread use of the camera.

I hope a DIT isn't required with the RED because my two small RED features shoots can't afford one...(they won't even pay for a 2nd AC on B-camera) we have an experienced person with the RED operating B-camera and a separate data wrangler instead of a loader, but no DIT in the traditional sense. But then, I've shot eight HDCAM features with no DIT either.

Unless you are doing a complex multi-camera shoot with unusual shooting elements to deal with, like effects work, etc. -- if you are just doing a typical narrative shoot with one camera, or two cameras occasionally, then it's my belief that any camera, film or digital, that needs an engineer-type person on payroll to deal with it is not right for low-budget mainstream filmmaking, it's a specialty camera. I have nothing against DIT's because they serve a function, a valuable one when you need someone of that technical level on a shoot, but if you can't shoot a normal talking head close-up dialogue scene in some kitchen without the help of some technical expert (beyond the DP and camera crew) then it seems that the camera must be too complicated to use for normal run & gun filmmaking. I don't think it was Jannard's dream that the RED would require engineering-types to follow it around whenever someone hit the record button on a scene.

Not to say that I don't make some technical mistakes when shooting either film or digital, and perhaps some of those mistakes could have been avoided with another pair of knowledgeable eyes on the set double-checking my work... but philosophically, I think typical narrative filmmaking should be kept simple technically, and if a camera is so finicky or complex that a generally smart DP and camera crew can't manage to expose a shot correctly or record it correctly without an extra expert helping them, then it's not meant to be used on anything basic or simple like a typical small movie.

Of course, who's to say that I won't be seriously regretting not hiring a DIT on these small RED features I'm beginning, time will tell... I'm just hoping that the RED really is suited for indie filmmaking with a small crew.
 
But David, are you backing up your data on set at least to a more secure data storage? Are you using drive or cf?
 
We're mainly on stages, recording to RED drives, then making one (or two?) back-up(s) at the production office and another back-up at the post house doing dailies (PlasterCity Digital). I think. I'll have to get back with you on the particulars. I'm following DP (and RED owner) Jim Mather's suggestions on this workflow, he having completed two RED features.

I may be crying in my drink one of these days, we'll find out...

I think when you're dealing with a complex broadcast video camera like the Sony F23 with a lot of menu options and you're planning something complex, a DIT makes a lot of sense. But with these RAW cameras, the dream or design is to get back to something closer to exposing a film negative, where all the image manipulation is saved for post. So the question is can you expose a RAW image correctly without the help of a DIT, and can you record and back up the data with just a data wrangler in charge of that. I'll find out I guess.
 
No, I think you'll be fine. You're taking precautions as I expected a professional like you would. Just make sure that the backup is in a more secure format. Considering the ease and relatively low cost, having copies at different locations is also a good safeguard.
 
I'm following DP (and RED owner) Jim Mather's suggestions on this workflow, he having completed two RED features.

I may be crying in my drink one of these days, we'll find out...

Nah. You've got an experienced RED shooter on board to help out. It'll be smooth sailing, I predict. I've found the camera generally easy to deal with from day 1 and I have way less experience than you and your team. I'm sure technical issues will disappear and it will all be about creativity. At least I hope so, from your blog it sounds like you guys will be moving fast.

Love the look you created. Seems like a very fun project. I mean, shit, look at the subject matter.
 
What did RED support say about the drive not having any data?
Did the drive just not show up on the computer was there nothing
on it? If it was the latter then maybe someone deleted the drive
or reformatted but was too afraid to own up.
 
David, just curious about your work flow. Since you're using Red drives with 2 hours of recording, are you filling the drive up or swapping them out every xx minutes to be verified and copied?
 
What did RED support say about the drive not having any data?
Did the drive just not show up on the computer was there nothing
on it? If it was the latter then maybe someone deleted the drive
or reformatted but was too afraid to own up.

There was data. They just couldn't access it. I think it's at a data recovery company (hopefully experienced and good).

Supposedly Red support hasn't responded to him. I'm wondering about that point considering this was supposed to have happened months ago. I wonder when the help ticket was put in, how many follow up direct calls to Red was made, and why such a late post here?

In fact, ironically, maybe if he handled himself more professionally and maturely, he might have hit the forum the day he found out he was in this mess and someone could have given him advice or pointed to people in the know (apparently his rental company was clueless from the beginning).

By the way addie, maybe you better triple check the credentials and abilities of whomever has the drive now and is supposed to get the data out. You don't want someone to make a mistake when they're that deep into the hard drive. You've still got a chance. Maybe you really should wait until you get hold of Red or ask someone here if they know of a top-notch data recovery company. I work with some genius high-tech pros, if you want me to ask them, let me know.
 
David, just curious about your work flow. Since you're using Red drives with 2 hours of recording, are you filling the drive up or swapping them out every xx minutes to be verified and copied?

Jim Mathers suggests not filling them up but changing drives after 20 to 30 minutes of footage has gone on them, to dump and verify the footage. Since the drives hold more time than that, we have some flexibility in picking a point in the shooting day when there's some downtime rather than in the middle of a scene.
 
The next step is gdv coming up and posting...

Unfortunately, I could meet before this gdv. The most unfriendly ebay seller ever. Perfect a$$hole. Here's what kind of people these guys are.

Ceasar, again you are not behaving.
Bad boy.
 
i hope the data is recovered ...
from experience i have found the whole crew/cast feels terrible when film , tape , data is lost/damaged on any project (any budget) ....
wish we could come up with a Fix ...
bottom line - it could happen to any of us at any time using any equipment...
thanks for posting your experience ... we can all learn something here ..
 
Jim Mathers suggests not filling them up but changing drives after 20 to 30 minutes of footage has gone on them, to dump and verify the footage. Since the drives hold more time than that, we have some flexibility in picking a point in the shooting day when there's some downtime rather than in the middle of a scene.

I just wrapped a TV Comedy pilot shooting RED. It was VERY low budget and I only had a focus puller. We had CF cards *just in case* but i also had 2 drives. I'd swap them at lunchtime and wrap and back them up myself on my laptop to another RAID. This RAID drive then went at the end of the day to the edit suite and was backed up again to another RAID. The 1st drive was then returned by lunchtime for the next day.

I was shooting 70% handheld and also had car mount shots. Didn't have a single RED drive problem.

Even if we had a DIT it still would have been hard. We almost always had 2 if not 3 locations a day and often without power. No power makes it more difficult to backup. Who wants to start a copy that might take 30 mins when there's no power and you might have to move location ?

It worked fine and I was able to average about 30 slates a day. Pretty good considering.

God-dam the camera is awkward to hand hold though.....

jb
 
DIT is a integral part of Digital Cinema

DIT is a integral part of Digital Cinema

I believe DIT / IT person (min. 1 person) with Camera Crew will be a added bonus for Digital Cinema production. Everyone talking about using RED as a ENG camera. I think RED ONE is not yet an ENG camera as on date unless Scarlet arrives to scene and we have an alternate rugged storage mechanism something similar to Tape. At least we need to have Assistant Cameraman to take the roll of DIT if there is no budget.
 
Ceasar, again you are not behaving.
Bad boy.
Yeah, good joke. I am the bad boy.

If these readers could experiment how sordid you are, they would easily understand why you come here to ba$h Jim Jannard's camera.
 
Yeah, good joke. I am the bad boy.

If these readers could experiment how sordid you are, they would easily understand why you come here to ba$h Jim Jannard's camera.
I could also have some touch with him. Worst. Seller. Ever. He's here not to help, that's for sure.
 
At least we need to have Assistant Cameraman to take the roll of DIT if there is no budget.

How though ? It's extra work ON TOP of what they already have to do.

To me it's the loader's role if we are looking at the traditional model of filmmaking. The AC needs to be by the camera the whole time. How are they meant to dash off and do backups in the middle of things ?

jb
 
I could also have some touch with him. Worst. Seller. Ever. He's here not to help, that's for sure.
As already said, crap. Totally crap. This guy completely sucks (I'm happy because he shall read it :)). ONLY truth!
 
This just sounds like a bogus post from RED's competition to me.

If there was data on it, the drive should have been sent to RED.
 
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