When can I order an Ursa Mini 4.6K??

[Hernan Herrera]

Calling a camera that shoots 15 stops of latitude (and believe me, they are for real), shoots Raw in three different flavors and at very high rates, to very cheap non-proprietary media, with onboard touchscreen, all kinds of outputs and inputs including 4k UHD, records all flavors of Prores in 4k, very low power consumption, a real 35mm sized sensor, etc, etc, part of a trend of lackluster tech is kind of myopic.
And by the way, BM's fourth or fifth attempt at a camera has been a winner in my book, not a single problem, not one, nothing, zero. I'd say BM has made strides to become an industry player.
Hey I still love my Red and what Red was done for me, but I cannot let that blind me and disregard other tech.

 

[Aaron Hunt]

Calling a camera that shoots 15 stops of latitude (and believe me, they are for real), shoots Raw in three different flavors and at very high rates, to very cheap non-proprietary media, with onboard touchscreen, all kinds of outputs and inputs including 4k UHD, records all flavors of Prores in 4k, very low power consumption, a real 35mm sized sensor, etc, etc, part of a trend of lackluster tech is kind of myopic.
And by the way, BM's fourth or fifth attempt at a camera has been a winner in my book, not a single problem, not one, nothing, zero. I'd say BM has made strides to become an industry player.
Hey I still love my Red and what Red was done for me, but I cannot let that blind me and disregard other tech.

Herman, coincidentally, I watched your Ursa test just hours before these new comments... I assume you own your own?

 

[Wayne Morellini]

I agree about the Red one. Hearing somebody being charged several thousand dollers to fix up what probably was a simple mainboard part, stopped my delusion in its track. Apple decades ago had a swap service where they swap for $50 or something the mainboard of the latter Apple computer and repaired the original in a central base. So not something there wasn't alternatives for. And the footage is the movie the Happening b(I think).

It's taken them multiple generations to get up to the level of the Mini Ursa, view it that way. This is not a purpose built camera company near many high end professionals to draw upon in California, with an established end market sensor maker that knows how to get everything rich, which I have several cameras using them I think. I was highly motivated to buy a Red One , because it came out of the influence of the DIY Cinema Camera projects I was involved with, probably their FPGA design they were doing, explains a lot (getting high end professionals l, in my opinion, to do isomething like this from the start would often result in what we have today a lot sooner. And I know higher end tbsn anybody they likely have ever had).


BM didn't have the large money backer. They got to dragon level in half the time at a lot less price. It is just some bad choices and other people that stuffed it up, otherwise it would be mostly smooth sailing. There had unexpected problems sensor parts manufacturing side, and flash parts remanufacturing side. Take away those issues, it's pretty good.

Now realise they are trying to do the same thing as dragon but at likely a quarter the parts development cost of Red. And its not unremarkable that when you push the boundaries of low end sensor technology native performance with out a long established player, things might go a bit different from expected, that is the nature of snaligue effects. So, there, probably the best defence of BM mini ursa etc you have ever seen. You can quote me. However, caution innplanning and release, and a bit more design on the flash performance issues, could have eased things. I'm being fair.

Ursa Mini 4.6k is a good camera at half the price, but as it is it is still about the best value.

 

[Daniel Pearson]

Blackmagic cameras (and almost everything else they touch) are a bad joke.

Anyone who speaks highly of them are either getting cherry picked samples or getting paid.

Go ahead and call them directly and see how they treat you.

Come on the Pocket Cinema camera is unrivalled for what it offers and simply an amazing little camera.

 

[Wayne Morellini]

Hernan, that scene doesn't fully illustrate what I'm talking about. It has a few issues though.

Get somebody directly under high sun with nice contrasty oily skin, like the comparison footage I have seen with Red, and see what the contrast is like, the highlights and different sections of skin. The Red came out looking largely better. I suspect it was from the different performance curves between the cameras, it might be able to be adjusted in camera, or maybe baked into the the make up of the sensor (there are significant influence from silicon compound chemistry on performance and curves in sensors). It could be that the curve influence is like this to get higher stop performance etc. It would be a balancing act.

But the footage is pretty good, some of the skin stuff I can barely see given that he is nice and cool in the shade and it is latter in the afternoon. I see a bit of a halo around his head. The skin in pushed in the limited ditect light on it, to keep the rest bright enough. Nothing too much about these, just like everything else, and in the old days, you have to work with it. Until we get more towards 20 stops I imagine its going still be an issue. But as is, you can go rogue with this on documentaries, eng, live events with minimal grading (unlike a lot of previouse cameras in the market).

 

[Wayne Morellini]

Come on the Pocket Cinema camera is unrivalled for what it offers and simply an amazing little camera.

Yes. But support was pretty crappy frankly. Instead of fixing minor to fix but serious enough issues in the firmware, they left it while they developed their universal furnware solution, only to now abandon for this camera. If they had made the effort to support 1080p50 (it has been reported the sensor can do 100fps or so natively) even atnthe sane data rate and a few extra things ((like some auto set controls) I could have bought one (but they do get hot, and fairly simple are two issues). But we have much higher speed cards now, and just using a memory buffer could have smoothed things out. It maybe that they were reluctant to enahle 1080p50 because of either cards were unreliable, or heatv(which will also affects cards being exposed to it). However, give us a special test menue with 1080p50 recording and let us decide, and we could have been off with it

 

[Wayne Morellini]

As it is, they should chuck their FPGA in the bin for the next pocket, and get a nvidia TX1 Jetson board and offer high speed 4k and 8k+ stills. I was thinking of doing an 8k video camera with that thing, and you could pribavky do a 6kp50 now for less than $1000.

 

[Kenneth C Merrill]

The Ursa 4.6k has been noted to sometimes tend towards magenta, and seems to lack any form of an OLPF like the rest of their cameras. But... for the price, 15 Stops Of Dynamic Range (The only digital camera to surpass the Alexa's DR at this point if those stops are usable, and BMD has been good about accurately stating the DR on their cameras)...

I compared the UM4.6K against the Alexa myself. The Alexa wins out by about 1 1/2 stops. So either the Alexa has more than 14 stops or the UM4.6K has far fewer than 15.

 

[Fahnon Bennett]

Blackmagic cameras (and almost everything else they touch) are a bad joke.

Anyone who speaks highly of them are either getting cherry picked samples or getting paid.

Go ahead and call them directly and see how they treat you.

Well this is just incorrect. I have owned the 2.5k BMCC, Pocket and now the 4.6k. The new camera is the first time I've had any problems with from any of them (magenta corners). And I've rented additional cameras and also no issues. I certainly haven't been getting cherry picked samples...

They've already fixed 1/2 of the problem with magenta with the latest firmware update and I'm actually confident they'll correct the other half relatively soon. If they don't, I'll probably be joining the Red family.

I take it you've had a bad experience with them?

 

[Daniel Pearson]

Yes. But support was pretty crappy frankly. Instead of fixing minor to fix but serious enough issues in the firmware, they left it while they developed their universal furnware solution, only to now abandon for this camera. If they had made the effort to support 1080p50 (it has been reported the sensor can do 100fps or so natively) even atnthe sane data rate and a few extra things ((like some auto set controls) I could have bought one (but they do get hot, and fairly simple are two issues). But we have much higher speed cards now, and just using a memory buffer could have smoothed things out. It maybe that they were reluctant to enahle 1080p50 because of either cards were unreliable, or heatv(which will also affects cards being exposed to it). However, give us a special test menue with 1080p50 recording and let us decide, and we could have been off with it

50p was never offered as a spec for the bmpcc only forum speculation.

Yes the camera gets hot and batteries don't last long enough but it shoots raw and ProRes with 13 or so stops of DR the size of a point and shoot for $1000... That's an amazing deal.

 

[jake blackstone]

I have owned the 2.5k BMCC, Pocket and now the 4.6k. The new camera is the first time I've had any problems with from any of them (magenta corners). And I've rented additional cameras and also no issues.

I'm confused. If you had problems with UM4.6k, then you can't say "also no issues". You just said you had issues, no?

They've already fixed 1/2 of the problem with magenta with the latest firmware update and I'm actually confident they'll correct the other half relatively soon. If they don't, I'll probably be joining the Red family.

Confused again. If you say you're "actually confident they'll correct the other half relatively soon", then your confidence actually is extremely low, as in the very next sentence you promise you'll "probably be joining the Red family". So, are you confident or not?
Very confusing...

 

[shashbugu]

Bottomline, nobody has said the UM4.6k is not a capable camera. The aspirations of the company in building the camera are laudable ( but as a camera company that has actual customers who want to use their cameras for paying jobs they need to really get their act together). Its a great first step for a sensor and color science. Its not very good.

 

[Wayne Morellini]

50p was never offered as a spec for the bmpcc only forum speculation.

Yes the camera gets hot and batteries don't last long enough but it shoots raw and ProRes with 13 or so stops of DR the size of a point and shoot for $1000... That's an amazing deal.

I was not saying it was, but they could have tried, but I think are paranoid about negative user experiences. But if it works with some cards and not with others etc, let it up to us, put it in a test menu out of sight of normal users. Even if it has to be the sane data rate prores as 1080p30, that is better than nothing. It was not such a good thing not to have and would have been the extra mile to some users.

Now, the camera at $995, was OK when released, great at $500 on that summer discount. I know, because I had to estimate pricing to do an ultra cheap cinema camera. It is just the way they had to do it, costs.

Anyway, it doesn't matter, if they introduced 50p or 100p today, I'd probably be recommending it somebody else rather thannbuying it. 1080p is old and and much lower than good vision.

 

[Wayne Morellini]

Well this is just incorrect. I have owned the 2.5k BMCC, Pocket and now the 4.6k. The new camera is the first time I've had any problems with from any of them (magenta corners). And I've rented additional cameras and also no issues. I certainly haven't been getting cherry picked samples...

They've already fixed 1/2 of the problem with magenta with the latest firmware update and I'm actually confident they'll correct the other half relatively soon. If they don't, I'll probably be joining the Red family.

I take it you've had a bad experience with them?

Fahnon, pretty well written. I understand perfectly what you mean. But I would like to ask, what half did they fix and what half didn't they.

Now, what people don't understand is, just because somebody gets a bad camera, it doesn't mean the next 100 cameras won't be excellent. But if one in ten cameras have issues, then you got to ask what is going to happen to the other 9 over time. 1 in 1000 is more acceptable. Frankily, this is not gatranteed either, you might get 1 in a thousand bad, and every one of the other 999 go wrong in a years time.

 

[Fahnon Bennett]

I'm confused. If you had problems with UM4.6k, then you can't say "also no issues". You just said you had issues, no?

No issues with the two BMD cameras I've owned for years and the BMCCs I've rented. So my statement means that I've had a problem free track record with several BMD cameras over years of time until this camera came into my possession in April. For the record, the only issue I've had with the UM46 has been the magenta issue.

Confused again. If you say you're "actually confident they'll correct the other half relatively soon", then your confidence actually is extremely low, as in the very next sentence you promise you'll "probably be joining the Red family". So, are you confident or not?
Very confusing...

I'm not sure I understand this one. How is it contradictory to say that I'm confident that they'll fix the other half of the issue in a reasonable timeframe? For he record: I am confident. My comment about joining team Red was because I'll be pissed if I've misplaced my confidence and really Red and BMD are the only two games in town that have the combo I'm looking for in a camera to own (hi res+hi DR+hi framerates+color science+price).

This thread was started because the OP was trying to find the same camera that I own and can't. Because it's still not widely available, I'm pretty sure I could make my money back if I sold it; but I'm not doing that only because I believe they will fix the only remaining issue (magenta in the corners when using a certain focal lengths stopped down). So I'm putting my actual money where my mouth is on this one.

 

[Wayne Morellini]

So Fahnon, what is the half solved and the half not? I'm interested in it, but at that price things are a bit thin (waiting on other cameras).

 

[Fahnon Bennett]

Fahnon, pretty well written. I understand perfectly what you mean. But I would like to ask, what half did they fix and what half didn't they.

Now, what people don't understand is, just because somebody gets a bad camera, it doesn't mean the next 100 cameras won't be excellent. But if one in ten cameras have issues, then you got to ask what is going to happen to the other 9 over time. 1 in 1000 is more acceptable. Frankily, this is not gatranteed either, you might get 1 in a thousand bad, and every one of the other 999 go wrong in a years time.

Hey there, Wayne. There's a loooong thread over on the official BMD forums that detail everything, but it's probably too much to go through for someone who isn't personally invested in this camera; so I'll summarize.

Issue #1 - One of our members noticed magenta in the corners of some beta tester's footage. It's most noticeable in grey pavement and blue skies. It also varies in intensity depending on focal length, aperture and even the lens make/model. This flaw carried over to the final camera release, but apparently only presents itself when stopped down to f/8 and smaller apertures. The workaround of course is to shoot at f/5/6 and wider until it's worked out.
Issue #2 - The camera also launched with a heavy magenta bias in-camera. If you bring raw footage into resolve from launch firmware, you'll see the tint slider cranked way over to the magenta side no matter what WB you use. This is easily corrected, but presents problems for projects with workflows that don't allow for grading or are handed to a client directly for a fast turnaround.

Issue #2 has been taken care of with firmware 3.3 and you'll see the images are much more neutral SOTC now. Issue #1 is still being worked on, but I'm seeing it mitigated on my camera. Here's a DNG from my camera using a Contax Zeiss 28mm @ f/5.6 and you can see for yourself how things are looking:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/7ufod11jin2xrka/pre1205-Fb_1_2016-06-15_1840_C0025_000005.dng?dl=0

So I'll be very happy with this camera if/when they fix issue #1 and I'm already shooting around it.

Here's the original thread if you are curious:
https://forum.blackmagicdesign.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=47333

 

[Wayne Morellini]

Nope, the summary is fine, that is why I asked. A few sentences rather than a few hours. People don't get it over here, you can answer somebody in a few seconds or minutes (hours for me, like an episode of Adam Ruins Everything) and save the reader hours or days of looking up the forum.

I am a member over there but rarely come unless there is something interesting. I understood that the lens magenta issue, wasn't really the fault. It definitely sounds like something on the sensor that is causing the issue and more concentrated on the corners. It could be the structure, if it is even all corners in appearance, then it is likely a structure causing it, though a chemistry reaction can also be even, but maybe a different shape. A structusl thing will catch the light in a certain way, and vary onntje angle of light in a regular way. A chemical reaction might be even but the light incidence interact with it differently, as real structures catching the light may not be involved, but may spread out on the edges (as a wafer treatnent should be even before slicing the sensors out, and structures visibly very even unless warping). See, there are various effects for various problems. It is an investigative problem. You map the physics of things in your head and every possible thing that can go wrong you can figure out, and investigate. I can guess some chemical treatment gone wrong, it could be a structure on the sensor, where the effect might be more even, unless warping is involved or some other varying defects. Because it involves straighter rays at lower ray volume luminance to defect compared to inner lens circle, whereas opening up the aperture allows more light to the outer circle and off angle light that can have more penertration depending on defect. You will probably find that with out the firmware update therecis still a slight magenta there at more open apertures, varying with aperture and becoming less detectable. That sort of thing.

The firmware update is likely sacrificing some performance in those channels to do it. But better done right on that side than your side. The corners are likely extra strong, so they might be mapped out the same way, but by biasing the pixels (but it should change depending on light. So it would have to be mapped over range. If they are thinking this way. Though this night result in performance degregation in those pixels, but people gave been working with lens with issues in corners for many years. So, it can still look good for most things except high end features. Which means 99% of the market might be satified (though it may not be something you really want).

 

[jake blackstone]

No issues with the two BMD cameras I've owned for years and the BMCCs I've rented. So my statement means that I've had a problem free track record with several BMD cameras over years of time until this camera came into my possession in April. For the record, the only issue I've had with the UM46 has been the magenta issue.

If you had issues with your camera, then you can't say "also no issues" with rental cameras. It's like saying: I had a terrible breakfast and my lunch was also great...

I'm not sure I understand this one. How is it contradictory to say that I'm confident that they'll fix the other half of the issue in a reasonable timeframe? For he record: I am confident. My comment about joining team Red was because I'll be pissed if I've misplaced my confidence and really Red and BMD are the only two games in town that have the combo I'm looking for in a camera to own (hi res+hi DR+hi framerates+color science+price).

This thread was started because the OP was trying to find the same camera that I own and can't. Because it's still not widely available, I'm pretty sure I could make my money back if I sold it; but I'm not doing that only because I believe they will fix the only remaining issue (magenta in the corners when using a certain focal lengths stopped down). So I'm putting my actual money where my mouth is on this one.

In your original statement you used words "Pretty confident" which means sure, convinced, self-assured, satisfied etc. Instead, your promise about "probably be joining the Red family" can only mean you're more hopeful, than convinced.

 

[Wayne Morellini]

Ahhg, Jake can you leave it. He's using good language. He only said problems with one camera, not the rest, which he, in logic, stated separately were good. He said pretty confident, not being arrogant he is leaving open the possibility he is wrong about that. If he is mistaken, he will be unhappy that his confidence is let down.