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What's in a name? (AKA: does "Scarlet" automatically imply "prosumer"?)

Jaime Vallés

Jaime Vallés

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What's in a name? (AKA: does "Scarlet" automatically imply "prosumer"?)

So here's the deal. The whole concept of modular DSMC brains ranging from $2750 to $28000 and up is incredible. Upgrade the brain as your business grows. Brilliant.

My only qualm is with the naming scheme of the various brains.

The name "Scarlet" instantly brings to mind the super-inexpensive 2/3" sensor brains (both fixed lens and interchangeable lens varieties) which completely trounce everything in the prosumer market from Sony, Panasonic and Canon.

Cool.

The name "Epic" is linked to the high end S35 and FF35 sensor brains (with high frame rates and all the other goodies) meant to compete with the top-of-the-line offerings from Arri, Sony and Panavision for a fraction of the price.

Also cool.

Then there's the S35 and FF35 Scarlet brains.

They seem like a dream come true for most owner/operators. Less than $10000, shoot in full 5K or 6K resolution, and are better than the RED ONE in almost every respect...

...but they carry the "Scarlet" name.

I can already picture the conversations between owners and producers:

YOU
"Yes, I have a complete RED camera kit, ready to shoot your commercial."

PRODUCER
"Great! When can I see your Epic camera?"

YOU
"Actually, it's a Scarlet."

PRODUCER
"But we hired you to make it look like a Hollywood blockbuster! We were going to use my Nikon lenses for that shallow depth of field everyone's raving about. Otherwise I could have just hired my cousin and his EX1 for $100 a day. His 1/2" sensor is close enough to your 2/3" sensor..."

YOU
"No, no. I have the S35 Scarlet."

PRODUCER
"The what?"

YOU
"It's just like an Epic, but without the high frame rates."

PRODUCER
"But I wanted to shoot this in 5K, not 3K!"

Etc., etc., etc. I can easily see where it can get confusing for those that aren't camera geeks like us. The name Scarlet implies the low-end of the RED lineup, and Epic is reserved for the high-end. The S35 Scarlet is somewhere in between the two.

The solution? I'm not sure. Perhaps it's keeping the 2/3" brains under the Scarlet mantle, while naming the S35 and FF35 non-overcrank brains "Epic Lite" instead of "Scarlet". I don't know.

Anyway, just food for thought.
 
I've had conversations about this too. I feel "Scarlet" should mean the 2/3" sensor only. Its very confusing to have the entry level 35mm also be called Scarlet. I've mentioned this before in other threads-- just as you bring up now. IMHO.

Some ideas for names replacing "35mm Scarlet":

Epic Auteur
Red Two
Red Rage
Red Verité

I love the cameras and I'm happy as a clam to own one-- just think the Scarlet should refer to the 2/3" sensor only--...
 
Just in case my previous post wasn't clear, I'm not advocating scrapping the S35 Scarlet brain. I think it should definitely remain in the lineup, and will likely be one of the best selling brains (next to the Fixed 2/3" Scarlet, of course.)

Nor do I have anything against the 2/3" Scarlets. They offer unprecedented image quality for mere peanuts.

My only concern is with the name "Scarlet" in reference to the S35 sensor cameras, and the confusion that may arise because of it.

Jeff, I love "Epic Auteur"!!!
 
Scarlet S35 and Scarlet FF35 are, and probably will remain, highly confusing to non-technical people. There is a middle word missing here. Scarlet, entry level. Epic, high-end. Where is my middle end?
I love the concept, idea and execution of the S35 and FF35 brains being in the Scarlet line. But, Jim, RED Team - hear us out here, it might very well be better to have a third name for them; as that will clearly create a "middle line" which you, imho, desperately need to assure producers.
 
I really don't think it's that important. It's all about the money. The ones who have it will want Epic and they will know it by name. Those who can't afford it will likely also know the name Scarlet, and that is what they want. The difficulty will lie on choosing the other particulars with those who are less technical. Let's face it, if you are discussing Scarlet with a client it will be because of money. If money is really tight they will take whichever you've got rather than try and negotiate that with the rental house. Why? Because you want the job and own the camera. You will throw in the rental on the Red just so they won't make you shoot DSLR. You are more motivated than the rental house to make the deal. 9 out of 10 times, that is how it'll go down.

What's in a name? OK maybe it would be more tidy if only the prosumer model had a different name, but what does it really matter? We've spent too much time thinking about this thing, I think.
 
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Red Audrey
Red Celeste
Red Eve
Epic Nano

Question: What do you call a deff dog?
Answer: You can call it whatever you like, it can't hear you anyway...
 
I don't see how anyone would know the specs of one of the cameras, but not know that the s35 one exists... It would probably be more like

You
Actually, I have a Scarlet

Producer
Isn't that the one with a smaller sensor or something?

You
No, the model I have is the same as the epic apart from the frame rates.

Producer
OK, no problem.
 
lolz! Why not call it Maroon? Or Crimson? Or blockbuster? Or I'm ashamed I couldn't afford an Epic but this is just as good really?

hehehehehehe
 
probably be more like

You
Actually, I have a Scarlet...

Producer
OK, no problem we'll just be cutting your rate by 75% then.

DOH
 
if your worried about producers not renting your scarlet.. dont worry.. they WONT rent it if its a scarlet 2/3, scarlet s35...

either A.. most small budget productions will straight up buy their own gear since it only makes sense (cost wise)..
this means you arent getting that rental..

B. any big ticket productions will not deal with scarlet.. but will go straight to epic -x which will either, compete in rental rates with what guys will try to get for their scarlets, or these productions will go straight to real rental houses with the infrastructure in place.

in my opinion.. BUY the camera with the knowledge that most likely you wont make a living renting it out. in fact expect nothing and youll be happy.
 
Zakaree Sandberg said:
if your worried about producers not renting your scarlet.. dont worry.. they WONT rent it if its a scarlet 2/3, scarlet s35...

either A.. most small budget productions will straight up buy their own gear since it only makes sense (cost wise)..
this means you arent getting that rental..

B. any big ticket productions will not deal with scarlet.. but will go straight to epic -x which will either, compete in rental rates with what guys will try to get for their scarlets, or these productions will go straight to real rental houses with the infrastructure in place.

in my opinion.. BUY the camera with the knowledge that most likely you wont make a living renting it out. in fact expect nothing and youll be happy.
Click to expand...

I'm not a mod but that pretty much sums it up.
:closed2ur0:
 
Zakaree Sandberg said:
either A.. most small budget productions will straight up buy their own gear since it only makes sense (cost wise)..
this means you arent getting that rental..

in my opinion.. BUY the camera with the knowledge that most likely you wont make a living renting it out. in fact expect nothing and youll be happy.
Click to expand...

I agree that you shouldn't expect rental income, but on the other hand there is a whole world of indie production that has zero interest in buying a camera. Most producers are not DPs. They get a crew together briefly to tell a story then they are off to the next project that may have different requirements. Maybe their next DP has more experience on another format, or they want to choose another system for other reasons. There is absolutely no reason for any production team that is not doing an ongoing episodic type of work to buy into a single system. Why lock yourself in and limit yourself like that?

It may seem counter intuitive to us, but many small indie producers are not thinking about spending their money on camera, it isn't even a priority to some of them. They are more focused on catering, and festivals and on and on... They are expecting that you will be thinking about camera so they won't have to.

Producers on the whole aren't interested in buying cameras, Photographers buy cameras. That's why there will not be any shortage of would be producers at your door expecting you to bring the gear... And trying to get you to bring it for free.
 
Free being the important word here. I dunno. For those looking to make money with a Scarlet it will be the quality of their work that makes them money, not the name of their camera
 
Zakaree Sandberg said:
if your worried about producers not renting your scarlet.. dont worry.. they WONT rent it if its a scarlet 2/3, scarlet s35...

either A.. most small budget productions will straight up buy their own gear since it only makes sense (cost wise)..
this means you arent getting that rental..

B. any big ticket productions will not deal with scarlet.. but will go straight to epic -x which will either, compete in rental rates with what guys will try to get for their scarlets, or these productions will go straight to real rental houses with the infrastructure in place.

in my opinion.. BUY the camera with the knowledge that most likely you wont make a living renting it out. in fact expect nothing and youll be happy.
Click to expand...

That's sort of like the ad agency/betacam thing back in the 80's. For most production requirements I don't think Scarlet S35 will be in any way inferior to Epic. It could offer cost savings for owner/ops packages as they don't need to charge as high a day rate for a $7k body vs a $28k body. I think both it and the 2/3" will find their place in the food chain.
 
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