What will *you* rent it for? REVISITED

[Gavin Greenwalt]

Our clients work with us because they want to work with us, period.

Which is what I think is driving the current RED rental market more than anything else right now. It's still very much a RED production company business. NOT a red rental business.

The "per day" rental number right now is pretty much bogus because you can't drop by Clairemont yet and pick one up. The cost of RED rental is buried inside of a production package.

RED's still not an item you want to just pick up spend a day reading the manual and walk onto set feeling comfortable pushing the record button and calling action.

RED is a workflow and a "problem" to be solved. People, not equipment solve problems and RED cameras are going out onto productions with people who know how to make it work and deliver a useful product. That's the true cost of rental. Not the body without a battery. And it's going to stay that way until the post production gets DV easy. Or post production companies can make the back end as invisible and ubiquitous as film.

The only people who have had enough experience to feel comfortable with a RED camera right at this moment are the people who own a RED camera. Therefore they're the people who you want on your side to walk you through the process. The real "RED Rental Market" isn't going to pop up in earnest until you hit a certain saturation point of independent, non-owners who are capable of delivering RED origin footage.

 

[Matthew Verkler]

the mere phrase "$500/day" seems to be sucking into people's brains like a lamprey eel and tapping into this deep well of anxiety. sheesh.

i don't care if people rent their REDs for $500/day. let em. our clients work with us because they want to work with us, period.

if hungry people want to work their tails off to move up the food chain, let 'em. either they'll succeed and more power to 'em, or else--more likely-- they'll find out how hard it is and quit, neither of which affects me or my business.

No anxiety here. I agree with you; our clients work with us because of what we do.

I think this thread is good for some people because it helps people to re-evaluate what they are trying to accomplish by buying Red and whether that makes sense.

 

[Finner]

Exactly Gavin.

It is just nice to know that in Colorado you can get an experienced DP for $250 a day ($500 - $250 for Z1U rental= DP for $250). Thats a PA's rate here. I think people should look at shooting films in Colorado because labour seems to be at almost 3rd world prices there. Come to think about it I bet Colorado is where Jonothan LB gets all his $100 grips.

 

[Matthew Verkler]

Exactly Gavin.

It is just nice to know that in Colorado you can get an experienced DP for $250 a day ($500 - $250 for Z1U rental= DP for $250). Thats a PA's rate here. I think people should look at shooting films in Colorado because labour seems to be at almost 3rd world prices there. Come to think about it I bet Colorado is where Jonothan LB gets all his $100 grips.

I thought Jonathan LB used the Bowfinger recruiting method . . . .

 

[planet e]

Exactly Gavin.

It is just nice to know that in Colorado you can get an experienced DP for $250 a day ($500 - $250 for Z1U rental= DP for $250). Thats a PA's rate here. I think people should look at shooting films in Colorado because labour seems to be at almost 3rd world prices there. Come to think about it I bet Colorado is where Jonothan LB gets all his $100 grips.

well, it's nice to see that a pound of snot is still freely delivered. and they say there's no such thing as a free lunch.

let's do some more math shall we? if finner makes $1500/day and can clear $10K over the price of the camera, let's be generous and call it a $40K unit, that's $50,000! by fall! that's 33 days of work.

you're working for 33 days for your day rate between now and the fall? that's awesome! it must be your charming personality attracting the clients like flies on shit....

and if you want to talk seriously about what constitutes chump change, then a $10K profit in a six-month time frame is bullshit, a complete joke. $10K to a stock trader is like oh, about 5% of what i move in a single day, on a below-average to average trading day. i can make $10K tomorrow, if that's where i want to put my energy on that day. my first RED camera was booked, gads i can't even remember. last year some time. i booked the profits by trading canon stock, just for fun. because i can.

the money for the 2nd one was booked when the price of gold touched $800 for the first time in 30 years and financial stocks hit the tank. long gold, short the financials has been the trade of a lifetime.

so if you think, sonny, that you can take me to school on the vicissitudes of markets by slagging me or my lovely state with your petty vanities and snide comments, then your brain is a little too firmly lodged in your codpiece. i suggest a crowbar, for quick n easy removal.

 

[Jeff Kilgroe]

Come to think about it I bet Colorado is where Jonothan LB gets all his $100 grips.

He must have hired them all away because I can't find them. Then again, I could just stop by a bar and hire a couple of dudes for beer money.

Not to pick on planet e directly, but there's a lot more to the local market here than what has been said. Sure, I can hire a Z1 / A1 / HVX shooter for $500/day... I can do the same in LA if I look in the right places. And something tells me that I wouldn't have any trouble doing that in Calgary either.

But that $500/day prosumer camera operator is only one segment of our local market. There's a lot of production going on around here... And a lot depends on what and who you know, the equipment is trivial. The who you know is 100X more important than the what you know.

I'm negotiating a commercial right now. The client has heard of RED, they think it's cool that we'll shoot their commercial on RED. They think they want to shoot on RED even though they don't understand what RED is all about. But in the end, they couldn't care less if I shoot the commercial on an F900 or an HVX200, just so long as they like the end product. Like Gavin said, a lot of what is driving the RED market is established client / provider relationships. These guys would be talking to me even if I didn't have my RED reservation or access to a RED camera. I worked for them before, they liked what I did, they're hoping to repeat the experience.

Finner, if you're ever in town to shoot something let me know. I can hook you up with a $500/day DP (for a fee). When you're done, we'll go out for a beer and you can tell me all about it.

 

[Jeff Kilgroe]

it must be your charming personality attracting the clients like flies on shit....

You really need to meet Finner. That's all I have to say 'bout that.

 

[Russ McDonald]

well, it's nice to see that a pound of snot is still freely delivered. and they say there's no such thing as a free lunch.

let's do some more math shall we? if finner makes $1500/day and can clear $10K over the price of the camera, let's be generous and call it a $40K unit, that's $50,000! by fall! that's 33 days of work.

you're working for 33 days for your day rate between now and the fall? that's awesome! it must be your charming personality attracting the clients like flies on shit....

and if you want to talk seriously about what constitutes chump change, then a $10K profit in a six-month time frame is bullshit, a complete joke. $10K to a stock trader is like oh, about 5% of what i move in a single day, on a below-average to average trading day. i can make $10K tomorrow, if that's where i want to put my energy on that day. my first RED camera was booked, gads i can't even remember. last year some time. i booked the profits by trading canon stock, just for fun. because i can.

the money for the 2nd one was booked when the price of gold touched $800 for the first time in 30 years and financial stocks hit the tank. long gold, short the financials has been the trade of a lifetime.

so if you think, sonny, that you can take me to school on the vicissitudes of markets by slagging me or my lovely state with your petty vanities and snide comments, then your brain is a little too firmly lodged in your codpiece. i suggest a crowbar, for quick n easy removal.

Wow!

I know Finner can be (and I mean this in a good way) a pain in the ass sometimes. No wonder you can charge 500 a day, its looks based on the post this is a hobby for you.

It isn't for Finner, it isn't for me, and it's not for a large amount of reservation holders. The initial question is IMO is silly, because the Red business, is not just a camera rental business. Like 35mm requires a Lab, Red requires data management. One is useless without the other. They have to go out together, and they should be priced accordingly.

 

[planet e]

You really need to meet Finner. That's all I have to say 'bout that.

sorry, i can't afford him. he's too precious and untouchable at the princely sum of $1500/day!

 

[planet e]

Wow!

No wonder you can charge 500 a day, its looks based on the post this is a hobby for you.

i never said that i charged $500/day--i said that i *paid out* $500/day for guys with Z1Us. because good shooters will step out the door for it.

and production is no more of a hobby for me than RED is a hobby for jim...no one goes into business to fail.

jim has completely sliced the legs out from under his market and introduced market inefficiencies never seen before in this profession, which have yet to be sorted through--that's what this thread is all about. or at least i thought it was, but really it's all about spreading the FUD....

 

[donatello b]

lets agree that any mentioned rental price is for camera only so we don't get confused on rates ...

as far as calling somebody whore's /bitches because they may work for 500 day .. perhaps they are Studs not whores ?...
in LA you can find crew to fit any budget ( no budget to millions) ..
when i started in the business i worked up from free ( and i pretty sure most have done free gigs when they started out) - hummmm so was i a whore or a stud ?
i just don't recall somebody without any experience in the film business getting top rate on their 1st gig ?

AND day rates ( wages) should not be based on the size of the camera !

 

[Russ McDonald]

i never said that i charged $500/day--i said that i *paid out* $500/day for guys with Z1Us. because good shooters will step out the door for it.

and production is no more of a hobby for me than RED is a hobby for jim...no one goes into business to fail.

jim has completely sliced the legs out from under his market and introduced market inefficiencies never seen before in this profession, which have yet to be sorted through--that's what this thread is all about. or at least i thought it was, but really it's all about spreading the FUD....

I have a pitch to go to but I will be back to respond to this. To help me out here, what kind of work do you do there in Colorado production wise

 

[Michael Hastings]

I don't think it is 1/2 the cost of a broadcast camera. I bought my Sony D600WS Betacam SP camera for about $32K new and about $15K for the glass. That's about $47K. The RED at $17.5 cannot be compared because it is non functional as just a body without VF etc. So once you add functionality to the point where the body is usable like the D600 was out of the box, you're close to the $30K figure. I'll be using a B4 mount Fujinon HD 13x4.5 lens with the RED. That's another $20K. I think we're looking at the same cost as a broadcast camera.

32K for the camera with VF in 1998 is about $43K today, adjusted for inflation.

RED $17500 + production pack $1250 + VF $2,950 = $21,700 or just about exactly half for the equivalent. Glass, batteries and other kit are a wash. (Although in reality I can get optically better glass covering 4K for 10% of your B4 cost via RED with Birger EOS mount).

I paid $31,000 (at 25% discount) - about $46K inflation adjusted - as a Sony Systems Integrator for my BVW300A in 1992/3. That was the last new broadcast camera I bought. I bought used Ikegami DNS-201Ws (harddrive recording) when I went widescreen SD.

When seriously considering HiDef (by then I was selling my UW systems to Panasonic so I knew several product managers) I told them that even at aggressive B-stock prices I wouldn't buy a Varicam or equivalent until they put a Firewire out on it - since I refused to get stuck buying a $20K+ deck. I had been doing Harddrive based workflow with the Editcams and Firewire based with HDV for a while and it just seemed abusive. The year they finally did that was 2006 NAB - and I discovered RED and put the deposit on #206 instead and stuck with HDV in the interim.

warning - punditry ahead:

RED is really servicing million dollar movie market, music videos, TV commercials and anything shooting film that's lower budget. How many of those get made? Worldwide, probably a fair number and it's probably good business.

I could see 10,000 RED's in service with none of them belonging to delusional fanboys.

I agree that you could see 10,000 reds and none of them delusional fanboys, but I think you make a mistake when you say RED is servicing the million dollar movie market.

In fact, as Gibby has pointed out time and again, RED is PERFECT FOR MANY EFP, DOCUMENTARY AND NATURE TYPE SHOOTERS - whether they are Z1, HVX, VARICAM, F900 or 16mm SR shooters - and almost all are easily capable of stepping up financially (or down for the Varicam and F900 people) to the $20-30K price point to get 4K resolution so that they get the best now, and to future proof that footage. For them the backend workflow issues - while annoying - aren't crucial. We don't have the time pressures movies and network television producers have. And the field workflow - with CF for supertough environments - and 2.5 hour harddrives (just a start) for longer form - is actually better than the tape-based (dust, dew sensor shutdowns, film stock, etc.) we have dealt with in the past. That is where I see 10,000 REDs!

 

[Finner]

well, it's nice to see that a pound of snot is still freely delivered. and they say there's no such thing as a free lunch.

let's do some more math shall we? if finner makes $1500/day and can clear $10K over the price of the camera, let's be generous and call it a $40K unit, that's $50,000! by fall! that's 33 days of work.

you're working for 33 days for your day rate between now and the fall? that's awesome! it must be your charming personality attracting the clients like flies on shit....

and if you want to talk seriously about what constitutes chump change, then a $10K profit in a six-month time frame is bullshit, a complete joke. $10K to a stock trader is like oh, about 5% of what i move in a single day, on a below-average to average trading day. i can make $10K tomorrow, if that's where i want to put my energy on that day. my first RED camera was booked, gads i can't even remember. last year some time. i booked the profits by trading canon stock, just for fun. because i can.

the money for the 2nd one was booked when the price of gold touched $800 for the first time in 30 years and financial stocks hit the tank. long gold, short the financials has been the trade of a lifetime.

so if you think, sonny, that you can take me to school on the vicissitudes of markets by slagging me or my lovely state with your petty vanities and snide comments, then your brain is a little too firmly lodged in your codpiece. i suggest a crowbar, for quick n easy removal.

First off your math, not so good! Lets see you say 33 days of work would clear 10k in rentals of the camera. So $10,000 divided by 33 days of work equals $303.03 a day in camera rentals. I would highly suggest you rent your camera out for more then that. Another thing that may help you out is never lump up a camera rental price with your rate, you will always lose with that strategy. Charge just like a rental house. $xxx for body/batteries, $xxx head and sticks, $xxx lenses, $xx mattebox, $xx filters, $xx storage memory... Then have your day rate seperate. A producer will always try and hack your price down it is a lot easier for them to try and pull a whole bunch off of one single price and I have found they get a lot more uncomfortable and feel a little bit sheepish trying to whittle down the price on every item. It also appears that you are giving them a better deal when they see every item they are getting in the package listed.

I was also thinking of what a great deal labour must be in Colorado. If you can get an EMMY award winning DP for $250 a day (I would consider the EMMY to give them a $100 a day premium on their rate) then a Colorado DP who has not won an EMMY should go for $150 a day putting a focus puller at $100day and DIT at $50day. Colorado becomes more and more appealing to shoot there by the minute.

As far as being more attractive then shit to flies. OH YA, I don't mean to brag but this guy right here can really give a piece of SHIT a run for it's money.

Not sure how this got into stock trading but I guess you feel you need to prove your worth? Maybe you can find yourself a nice little stock trading forum. Im sure you will be more comfortable there as it is becoming evidently clear that you are much better suited to trading then this bussiness.

 

[Jeff Kilgroe]

sorry, i can't afford him. he's too precious and untouchable at the princely sum of $1500/day!

That's still less than what my attorney charges. I've found cheaper attorneys, but so far have had to fire all of them.

I think a lot of the bickering going on here has to do with differences in business approaches.

There are many tiers to a market, and different levels of production to coincide with that. It's hard to charge $1500/day when you're shooting a commercial for a mom and pop furniture store to air late night or sunday mornings on a local station. At the same time, a major corporate client may be willing to pay ten times that to get exactly what they want when they want it. What Finner says about not combining your day rate and equipment rental rate are spot on. Don't do it. That's essentially what I was getting at when commenting on people "whoring themselves out" with their cameras. Additionally, figure some wiggle room into your rates, people like it when they can negotiate your priced down a bit. Having an itemized list of goods / services looks good to a client, they feel like they have more options and control. Like Finner said, they're not going to haggle over each line item in most cases.

In the end, what someone decides to charge for their equipment and services is up to them and should be commensurate with the sort of production service they're offering. People should not be so eager to sell themselves short or try to undercut every other guy in town.

 

[planet e]

I was also thinking of what a great deal labour must be in Colorado. If you can get an EMMY award winning DP for $250 a day
.

wow, you really have a will to distort and magnify what other people say, my friend, it is a very unattractive trait. sad to see your codpiece in such a twist.

anyway, to get back to the original point which started this flame-fest....

i think the case that aquavideo is making for 10,000 REDs in the marketplace is a very good one, which is why i think the $10K body on ebay is a pipe dream, a product of wishful thinking. it will be especially interesting to see what, if any, goodies are unleashed at NAB that might encourage new buyers to step in line.

it would also be interesting to see updated numbers from RED, because they stopped issuing serial numbers publicly in the 3,000s. the conventional wisdom is that RED has 3,000 orders or so to fill, but surely, there are still folks getting in line for these cameras, since RED stopped the public release of that info.

it will be a real push-me, pull-you--as people with existing reservations pass on their cameras because of disappointments in workflow or the tough economic times, etc., while the queue on the back-end continues to fill. it wouldn't surprise me if they already have orders for 5,000 cameras, but of course, that is pure conjecture and speculation. interesting times, indeed.

 

[Fredrik Callinggard]

I think the problem we're having here is the price point RED themselves made. By selling the camera so low they make it possible for a lot of people to get hold of it. This will be great for indie filmmaking and so on but it stirs up the market.

On one side we have the, let's call it professional side (to make it easy), this is rental houses and already established people that come from high end film making. These people will rent out RED for a daily price - that price will raise with the gear/ accessories provided, which most probably is ARRI, Cine lenses etc. There salaries are also higher since they're established and considered to have experience that match to that price tag.

Then we will have what we can call semi-professionals (don't get offended I'm generalizing). These people are established in the ENG/EFP market. They will very likely place themselves into a price target which suits that market. The accessories will be mid-market FF's and Nikon glass.

Last one is a pro-consumer or young "studs" (as someone called them). That's people who wants to go somewhere and believe that RED can help them on the way. If it will is of course only up to them, but they will price themselves accordingly to that. There we'll find low end accessories etc.

Now I started my career working for years for literally nothing. Today I take a minimum of $3000/ day (my fee only) as a DP and a minimu of $20000 as a director.

I don't think I will lower my price tag on the rental of my RED. I might throw it in now and then for free (as second cam) because it's a sweetener, when I'm doing a job, but all in all it will be rented out for a premium price. That is because it will be accompanied with accessories that are premium as well. Everything with my RED package will be premium therefor it should go for Premium price.

Now with the lower prices out there - you will have a lower standard with the RED.

I'm not saying that it will lower the images coming out but it will lower (to a certain point) the service that comes out of the camera package.

I THINK THAT'S WHAT YOU'RE GOING TO PAY FOR.


fred

 

[planet e]

Not sure how this got into stock trading but I guess you feel you need to prove your worth?

hee hee, funny stuff from a guy who feels a need to repeatedly flog a child for the naive stuff that he posts online and and then elicit group laughs at his expense ...and feels a need to throw around his day rate of $1500/day, as if it proved his worth....

i do have things to prove, so what? everyone has things to prove, in this industry....it's pretty much built on proving yourself, with every project. BFD.

 

[Fredrik Callinggard]

Just saw that there's apparently a big English prod house that's planning on renting out there RED bodies for free and only charge for accessories.

http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=314&goto=newpost

fred

 

[Johnny Johnson]

On one side we have the, let's call it professional side (to make it easy), this is rental houses and already established people that come from high end film making. These people will rent out RED for a daily price - that price will raise with the gear/ accessories provided, which most probably is ARRI, Cine lenses etc. There salaries are also higher since they're established and considered to have experience that match to that price tag.



fred

As I have just found out and stated in the europe subsection, an established rental company in london is renting out their cameras for free and only charging on accessories. I think this could work as a business strategy when there are millions of cameras readily available down the line.