What will *you* rent it for? REVISITED

[Kevin Lang]

I think for the basic production pack no lenses $800 aday 3 day week is fair right now! But once 3000 cameras are available I see it dropping like a rock.

 

[I Bloom]

I think for the basic production pack no lenses $800 aday 3 day week is fair right now! But once 3000 cameras are available I see it dropping like a rock.

How far can it drop though. The initial investment is still a lot higher than the prosumer market. My feeling, it has to stabalize somewhere. It's not that cheap (as in beer).

IBloom

 

[Jeff Coatney]

The pricing on the camera will be somewhat insulated by the rental costs of supports, cranes and dolly, etc. This is still a professional camera that requires some beefy hardware to move it around.
The camera is only part of the equation.

 

[chuckt]

Our DP figured RED is too costly because of the expensive DIT and post workflow, so he decided to go with a Sony.
He priced a Sony Ex1.
Sale price $6500 + $1000 for extra storage cards.
Rental = $350/day;three day week; 2 week month. (+ insurance.) No DIT needed. Post is easy.

Then he did the math and went out and bought a new one. That way he did not have to bother with insurance, return condition, etc.
he would never pay $800 + DIT+ Insurance + shipping etc for a RED package. He would rather buy one and be his own DIT and post engineer.

Unlike other systems, RED need a DIT + Complicated post workflow. That makes it rather expensive.

A Full production set up (total cost about $50K) + DIT should not exceed $800 to make it attractive to customer. That is my Humble opinion.

 

[Jens Jakob Thorsen]

A full production setup with proper lenses is more like $120K+

$3-3,5K for a full shooting package with 8 spanking new lenses and playback
on commercials is my bet. For a feature I would go down to 2-2,5day weeks.
DIT is about $500 here in Denmark

 

[Dave Weber]

Am I Thinking Wrong?

Am I Thinking Wrong?

I have held this thought the whole time.

1. You can't compare a RED to any other "Video Camera" or "HD Camera"
2. You should compare a RED to a 35mm Film Camera.
3. You should also compare a RED to the other 2K and 4K Cameras.
4. Can you get a 35mm, 2K or 4K camera package for $800 a day? NO!

Why short change yourself when you hold one of the most powerful Digital Cinema Cameras in the Industry?

Flame away :ranting2:

 

[Etienne Caron]

How many of you got a RedOne body for backup in their package ? Do you charge it or make it at no charge to add credibility to your service ?

Serious indie Red rental investment is more ~$40,000 and more (no lens, head, matte-box, filters, etc...) and, from my point of view, should be charge at 2%. All the hard-drive, CF, laptop, software, computer stuff and etc... should be rated at 3%.

Ive hear a rumor that there is a rental house facility in Toronto that give a RedOne basic package (dont ask me the detail) when you rent all the rest there (Head, tripod, Master primes, matte-box, FF, blahblahblah...)

I'm working in a big post-production in Montreal call Vision Globale and there is no plan at all to do RedOne post-production this year (they wait to see some post-production bug fix for Avid). It might be a detail, but DP and film company wont go "Red way" if its the same price as shooting with film and if its more complicated then expect.

ya, its a revolution, we are at the barricade, there is no cops, no siren and the molotov cocktail start burning my hand...



---
"So far so good... so far so good... so far so good. How you fall doesn't matter. It's how you land!" - La Haine

 

[Michael Hastings]

I think you are about right - a lot of us are wishful thinking.

I think you are about right - a lot of us are wishful thinking.

The usual formula in rental markets is, once there is more offer than demand, 0.5-1.5% of new price/day if booked for >= 5 days.

Expensive houses charge 3%, we seem to do fine at 0.75-1% as we are pretty optimized and rather small, with only 6 cameras en total. (which has advantages and disadvantages )

I think you are about right. I put $501 to $800 because in another month or two when there are a couple thousand cameras out there I will try to get a little over $500 but a lot of us are just trying to hold the line plus some wishful thinking. It will probably stabilize at about $500-600/day at established rental houses, $350-400 for owner/renters that have been in business awhile and have a clientele, and $200-350 for owner/renters that are searching for customers and can only compete on price. And some will go even lower just to generate some income.

Even at $200 a day, 50 rentals per year would offset the $24000 investment and say $5000 in interest costs amortized over three years. And depending on your tax rate, the accelerated 100% depreciation you can take this year would offset the interest costs. So you could break even on 40 rental days a year and still have your cool toy to do whatever you shooting you want with it.

With the Birger mount for $1450 plus $1500 or so for lenses, you can have a seriously high quality package for your own shooting and any indie that is willing to use the Canon lenses which are optically excellent - equal or better than the RED lenses and probably better than many of the used PL out there.

Other renters could certainly make their own deal for "real" cine lenses and still justify the $200/day separate rental of the RED. (There are many DPs that might not have a RED, but have their own older model 35mm film cameras and lenses that could include their lenses, matte box, etc. either in their day rate or a slight additional rental on smaller productions where the film stock savings are the justification for shooting RED.)

With my underwater stuff I have a mixed bag situation where at times I fit all three calculations, but even if I didn't have that part - I would use that last part as my worst case scenario, and this is why I disagree with some of the naysayers that say the indies/newbies shouldn't get a RED. No, they're not going to get rich, but if they even come close to breaking even and they either learn something about production and/or get some jobs that they other wise wouldn't it is a good deal. In some cases, even if they never made a dime - which I doubt would happen - it is cheaper than a year at a lot of colleges, and I for one think most people would learn more about television or movie production, business, and life by buying a RED and a cinematography or video book, and actually shooting for a year, than they would in a year or much more of school.

 

[Manfred Lopez]

4. Can you get a 35mm, 2K or 4K camera package for $800 a day? NO!

Unfortunately with so many 35mm cameras out there you CAN get a package for far less than $800 a day. As far as 2K and 4K are concerned, it's purely a function of supply and demand. Once 3,000+ Reds are out there and the waiting time to purchase a new one becomes overnight, and also once final cut pro can handle the footage like if it where DVCProHD, I predict the rental price will be no more than $350 a day.

By the way, lenses are also very cheap to rent, so I wouldn't count on them to pump up the rental rate. Rental houses typically look for a return on investment in the range of 50 to 60 rentals... and cameras are treated like loss-leaders anyway. So the message for those who have a Red right now: milk it while you can.

 

[Jeff Kilgroe]

Once the market stabilizes and REDs are available, equipment cost and availability will dictate rental rates.

IMO, a base rental package for RED One consists of the camera body, CF module, charger with 3 batteries & AC power adapter, base production pack, LCD or EVF. Or about $23 to $25K. Let's just assume $25K for a round number. ...To me that says $2500 / week and we'll assume a 3-day week.

Start charging much more than that and people won't rent, they will buy and then sell it when they're done.

Rental houses are not going to charge more than that after the supply catches up with demand. And demand is not all that high -- the camera is still unproven in the eyes of most and the post workflow along with fear of tapeless and backups, etc.. is scaring a lot of people away.

I highly doubt independent owner/operators will be able to make a living by renting out their camera, even with themselves as a DIT. IMO, a DIT is not needed in all shooting situations as some here would have you believe. And it's pretty easy to find a kid to swap and offload media.

On the bright side, if someone can rent their camera out about 1 week a month, the camera should pay for itself within a year. ...Whether the owner actually shoots with it or not.

 

[Fredrik Callinggard]

Guys! Remember that the question is what you would rent out the RED + some of the RED accessories, not anything else.

All the "other" stuff has to be added on accordingly.

So bare that in mind when your talking rental price here - it's only the RED itself + bare necessities.

fred

 

[Ed Watkins]

Unfortunately with so many 35mm cameras out there you CAN get a package for far less than $800 a day. As far as 2K and 4K are concerned, it's purely a function of supply and demand. Once 3,000+ Reds are out there and the waiting time to purchase a new one becomes overnight, and also once final cut pro can handle the footage like if it where DVCProHD, I predict the rental price will be no more than $350 a day.

By the way, lenses are also very cheap to rent, so I wouldn't count on them to pump up the rental rate. Rental houses typically look for a return on investment in the range of 50 to 60 rentals... and cameras are treated like loss-leaders anyway. So the message for those who have a Red right now: milk it while you can.

There are more than 3,000 HVX200's out there. They still rent for $250 - $300 a day. You reckon people will let their RED's go for the same day rate, I hope you are wrong.

Just to put it in perspective, there are >3,000 counties in the U.S, that works out as 1 RED per county. There are 10,016 "Cities" in the US, when the number of RED's goes above 10,000 then I'll panic.

(ref: http://www.census.gov/geo/www/gazetteer/places2k.html)

 

[Michael Hastings]

Once the market stabilizes and REDs are available, equipment cost and availability will dictate rental rates.

IMO, a base rental package for RED One consists of the camera body, CF module, charger with 3 batteries & AC power adapter, base production pack, LCD or EVF. Or about $23 to $25K. Let's just assume $25K for a round number. ...To me that says $2500 / week and we'll assume a 3-day week.

I agree that batteries have to be included but I am going on the assumption that lenses aren't (or they are inexpensive stills like the Nikon manual or birger mount Canon). I guess I don't understand how you think rentals are going to generate $800 or more a day when there are 3000 or more out there. Again, maybe a package, and maybe from a major house - but for an independent, not going out as the shooter and buiding it into their day rate - hard to picture. Does anybody regularly get that for an HPX-500 (same basic price point) or HPX2000 (higher price). $1000 is the quoted price at places like Abelcinetech and others, for probably its hottest competition, the F900 which costs twice as much. I agree that the RED may be a better/sharper image but the 70K purchase price point puts the F900 out of the comfort range of a lot of people and thus cements the rental prices to an extent. But the RED is purchase priced at the same or just a little more than the HPX-500 - basically Panasonic's cheapest broadcast style camera.

There are more than 3,000 HVX200's out there. They still rent for $250 - $300 a day. You reckon people will let their RED's go for the same day rate, I hope you are wrong.

Just to put it in perspective, there are >3,000 counties in the U.S, that works out as 1 RED per county. There are 10,016 "Cities" in the US, when the number of RED's goes above 10,000 then I'll panic.

(ref: http://www.census.gov/geo/www/gazetteer/places2k.html)

The HVX rental is sort of artificially inflated in that it 1) is usually the cheapest camera on the rate card and 2) it has become kind of the standard camera of the low end production market. Popularity allows it to be there. Not to mention that RED isn't really a run'n'gun camera - it is just too cumbersome in use for a lot of purposes. If you already own it you will make it work - but it won't be the first choice of a lot of the HVX types because of its much greater hassle factor. I like the RED because I can strip it down to its base form and fit it into an underwater housing. But I didn't shoot the lunar eclipse the other night, because it would have been just for fun and I didn't feel like hassling with putting it all together, mounting it, etc.

 

[purefilm]

I love the argument that film would be the same cost as Red with a DIT.

I can get a 435 package for a round $2500 (this includes everything)
400 FT of film cost $100 a roll. On an average commercial I will shoot 15 - 20 rolls a day.
$.43 a FT to process
$500 Hr Telecine

We come no where close to the cost a DIT and a full Red Package would cost.

It is correct that there will be 3,000 + cameras out there, but you have to take into account that this is world wide. I don't see it exploding past this due to the high investment cost to have a proper professional package. I also think some people who have invested in Red will rrealize that with the professional level of equipment needed, that they have gotten in over thier heads. This is nothing like owning an HVX with 35mm adapter and some lenses.

The lower end cameras can be great for some production, but if you are interested in working on professional features, commercials, and any high-end productions. They won't do the trick.

 

[Jeff Kilgroe]

I agree that batteries have to be included but I am going on the assumption that lenses aren't (or they are inexpensive stills like the Nikon manual or birger mount Canon).

I think I'm in agreement with you... I did not factor lenses into my rate, just the camera and accessories listed. But if I did factor in lenses, I'd say a basic RED kit like I listed plus a decent zoom lens or maybe both the RED 18-50 and 50-150 Together with the camera and accessories listed could rent for around $1000 to $1200 per day. Obviously depending on the area and other RED availability. Seems fair to me. Like you say, the HPX500 is at a similar price point and it rents pretty regularly at $1000/day for nothing more than the basic camera, a couple batteries and zoom lens -- at least around here it does and there isn't really a short supply or high demand. Between the couple rental houses in town I'm sure I could get one on short notice. The two main rental houses here don't have RED on order. They're just looking to refer people to local RED owners for now (for a percentage).

I think about this whole rental thing off and on, but I probably won't be renting my RED out much, if at all. I will probably keep rentals of my RED just between myself and other RED owners who need a second camera or who come in from out of town and need to use one here.

 

[SF Geek]

Good luck charging more than $800. I first thought $1,000 was a good rate because I had just dropped all that money. Think about it as if you were going to rent it. Would you pay $1,500 for a Red package? Then again, everyone here is biased. People I meet are already skeptical about the camera in the first place. If the $17,500 price was Red's selling point, then your rental rate should also reflect that. Or are all the people that were here bitching about how expensive everything was going to then go and gouge their customers for profits?

 

[Michael Hastings]

the HPX500 is at a similar price point and it rents pretty regularly at $1000/day for nothing more than the basic camera, a couple batteries and zoom lens -- at least around here it does and there isn't really a short supply or high demand.

Does an HPX500 really rent for $1000 - I just can't imagine that. As I said Abel lists the F900 f0r $1000/day and I'm sure you could get that discounted if you are any kind of decent negotiator.

 

[Manfred Lopez]

There are more than 3,000 HVX200's out there. They still rent for $250 - $300 a day. You reckon people will let their RED's go for the same day rate, I hope you are wrong.

Just to put it in perspective, there are >3,000 counties in the U.S, that works out as 1 RED per county. There are 10,016 "Cities" in the US, when the number of RED's goes above 10,000 then I'll panic.

(ref: http://www.census.gov/geo/www/gazetteer/places2k.html)

What? 250-300 a day for an HVX? Nobody pays that. I thought we were talking about single-camera owner rentals. An HVX goes for $125 to $175 tops. The $250 is a list price for big established places that would discount the price anyway (or even rent it away for free) depending on what else you rent. If you don't believe me take a look at these two listings to give you an idea regarding the HVX:

http://losangeles.craigslist.org/lac/crs/579622649.html

http://classifieds.myspace.com/inde...d&classifiedID=11827206&catID=18&subCatID=159

Also, I don't buy the 10,000 cities argument. Most of the rental action occurs in a few spots in this country (US). For the life of me I couldn't think of anyone wanting to rent a Red for anything other than an occational indie feature (who couldn't afford a red workflow anyway in the first place) in a place like Canton, OH. So once there are 5000 reds you know a whole bunch of them will end up in the same place. Remember, at one point there were only four cars in the US... and two still managed to get into an accident with each other. :umm:

 

[Martin Drew]

Prokit in the UK is pricing their Red rental package at $500 a day for Camera, VF, LCD, 1 x lens, 1 x drive.

 

[Jeff Kilgroe]

I guess it depends on the market... Around here an HPX500 w/ lens and power source goes for about $750-$850/ day. I was figuring about the same for RED at about $2500 per week for a RED body with CF module, batts, charger, base production pack. Seems fair to me. $1000 or so per day for the same thing with a nice lens or two wouldn't be a bad deal. But like I said, different markets. And rental houses here can set their rates just high enough were people will still rent from them instead of having someone cheaper in a larger market (like Abel) ship it to them.