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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

What we need, a cheap Red Pocket pro camera done right?

W

Wayne Morellini

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A s16+ handheld with 20 zoom liquid f1.6-1.2 speed lens, touch button auto set and pro manual control, image quality data rate 2 or 4 times better than best 4k Bluray rate. 4k motion/still to p50/60, or 4k motion, 8k still, 12-16 bit. Using Intel's reliable cheap high speed alternative to flash. Within two stops performance of weapon. $1000+. This year. Ambiance.

Not what was with another competitor's pocket camera a few years ago.
 
Because it is the finale frontier for Red to go..
Actually, I probably missed something in my previouse musings about this. Putting the chips on the same wafer of existing chips allow more much bigger lower cost per chip runs, reducing costs of all chips. So smaller processing chips and sensors can be put on the same wafer at much greater oacking desities further reducing the costs. Of course an Nvidia/arm or ambarella chip can do the job cheaper again (I never said as high data rate quality as an weapon or even mention bayer). Such a product can still be sold through a CE brand such as Apple, Pentax, JVC etc.
 
1) Red does not cater lower pricing segment's high-volume mass market and doing so would require significant changes in company.

2) Red expressed lack of interest in formats smaller than S35.

3) 8K pixel count on S16 sensor makes little sense if picture quality is a factor.

Right now Sony has technology and infrastructure to make a proper high quality S16 motion imaging camera for mass market, but if they do don't expect it to cost $1000.

You can get RX100mk2 in that price range, which is very good but is designed primarily for photography and shoots 8 bit 4:2:0 h.264.
 
It was hard enough to keep noise down in a 6K Super-35 sensor, can you imagine Red's problems trying to cram 8K into a Super-16 area? Do you really want a camera that is noisy above 200 ISO? Making an 8K Super-16 sensor would be like making a 16K Super-35 sensor.

Probably it would be like the small 4K sensors in cell phones in terms of noise issues in low-light. You'd need a lot of noise reduction processing in post.

Not to mention, you can't downsample raw-to-raw, so if you wanted raw recording for motion, then you'd have to record 8K -- 4K would be a sensor crop to Super-8 size.
 
Hrvoje Simic said:
1) Red does not cater lower pricing segment's high-volume mass market and doing so would require significant changes in company.

2) Red expressed lack of interest in formats smaller than S35.

3) 8K pixel count on S16 sensor makes little sense if picture quality is a factor.

Right now Sony has technology and infrastructure to make a proper high quality S16 motion imaging camera for mass market, but if they do don't expect it to cost $1000.

You can get RX100mk2 in that price range, which is very good but is designed primarily for photography and shoots 8 bit 4:2:0 h.264.
Click to expand...

Please have a look again. I said to partner with a CE brand, that can manufacture and distribute. Requires less changes at Red. Some if these companies are starved of good product for good product position. Industries do not want to be reliant on one quality supplier (Sony) so often seek others. It would bolster Red's position to afford mirenadvsnced sensor IP, which Sony does hsnd over fist.

In such a deal Red supplies the parts, but through such a deal Red csn accrss better foundary processes, even through partner compsny and maybe drop their chip costs to a quater along with their power consumption. A lot of these things Im tslking about affect your position relative to accessing the more limited space of the latest foundary processes.

These stratergies are business 101 at some of these big companies.

Now, I did say this is not as high quality as a Weapon, I did rate it down, and said 8k was still, not motion, it is 4k video only at lower frame rate. I deliberstely dud not mention niose floor, this is a cheap camera with more niose, not a weapon. This reduced performance over the period since the weapin, should be possible on an s16 by release.

Didn't I say $1000US or more. Didn't I say at kesst s16, which some people prefer, but At lesst includes 4/3rds.

Eren Ozkural said:
Hrvoje took the bait.
Click to expand...

No Eren, go away :)

David Mullen ASC said:
It was hard enough to keep noise down in a 6K Super-35 sensor, can you imagine Red's problems trying to cram 8K into a Super-16 area? Do you really want a camera that is noisy above 200 ISO? Making an 8K Super-16 sensor would be like making a 16K Super-35 sensor.

Probably it would be like the small 4K sensors in cell phones in terms of noise issues in low-light. You'd need a lot of noise reduction processing in post.

Not to mention, you can't downsample raw-to-raw, so if you wanted raw recording for motion, then you'd have to record 8K -- 4K would be a sensor crop to Super-8 size.
Click to expand...

Have a look at the reply to Hrvoje above. You guys assune it would be a weapon like camers it would not, it would be a cheap vamera with.goid performance to compete against other still and video.innthe market, but with.much better video. You assume it is 4k bayer, doable, but likely 4:2:2/4:4:4 through simple/complex binned, shifting the motion circuitry and motion requirements away from 8k, see the old Nokia 8k phone chips. It is a little creature fitted down in size meant to compete with a BM 4k pocket and show it how to do it better. BM would lilrly be.unable to match it for years, as the drsgon technology would likely be far superior i use in a snall firm factor, they would have to likely go Sony sensor to compete.

David Peterson said:
20x zoom lens which is f1.6-1.2??? LOL
16bit????? LOL

Suuuuuuure.
Click to expand...

He he, you missed the point David, thus is advanced lens tech that is very compact. Look at some of the Sony 100 series, to see how compact their lens systems are for the bigger format sensor cameras and realise that this technology is even.more compact. Again, you should compare the lens image quality on this proposal to those sorts of lens rather than a $20k Cooke cinema lens.

So in other words, a lot canbe done to raise the quality of the $1000-2000 price range rather than think in terms of fitting a weapon is there.
 
Red could take the Dragon sensor and cut it down to M4/3 size, which would make it a 4.3K sensor -- 4.3K for raw video and for stills.

Cutting it down to Super-16 size would make it 2.5K sensor, similar to the 2K sensor used in the SI2K mini or the HD sensor in the BM Pocket camera.
 
The logistics are fine. I have no idea about whether it would sell. But let me put it this way: if the 3K Scarlet was actually released, I would have bought two (or at least one). And all I wanted it for was stills.

Today things are different, but who knows?
 
I take 4k as a consumer/pro level of stills, 8k+ is what's really needed.

But shrinking the pad size to fit 4k-8k in a s16 or bigger sensor reduces the performance enough to differentiate it from Raven and stop it competing. This is a pocket stills video camera, not a cinema camera, but it could still be used for cinema fixed lens. Even a flat ring lens would be OK if you could zoom it and control focus and iris, but I don't know if that is possible. It would probably be a back end extention, it would give a medium format pickup.

The trick about selling is to leverage the Red reagon supreme quality reputation for sale through the CE, which would put them in most photo and video mag and sites front and center, and for Red, in thousands and thousands of retail chains stores accross America and the world. As long as it makes money, it is great PR for them.

Red really does not have much more to archieve, except better technology, bigger format, pro video and prosumer. There is probably some CE conoanies out there desiring big time a crack at using Dragon tech sensors and electronics, a whole new sude of the business, a spin off. Ambarella already has deep roots in the CE business, and some in TV infrastructure. There is another company that could jiont venture and result in a drastic increase in oerformance per unit of power. I knew somebody over there that is pretty good to deal with. The industry will he wary of single sourcing from Sony, they have at least 40% of the whole sensor industry, most major competitors use theur sensors in top end still cameras. They might he 60% after all this time.
 
The flat ring lens was a folded optic lens some where under 5 millimeters thick. It is basically s mirror lens with the same bokreth issue, but that is calculatable out (don't tell anybody I said that). But as with the low powered 5ghz+ fpga over ten years ago I wanted to use for for my processing and 3D designs to compete with Wii, the department of defence snapped it up. Two opportunities nipped in the butt.
 
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