What Should One Charge for Video Work with the Red

[JP Castel]

Hello

I am a current student here at UCLA. I am Vice President of the Film & Photography Society at UCLA and we are about ready to purchase a Red One Camera. Even though we might seem like a small enterprise we are always looking to push the envelope. I have used the red one many times on various shoots and have grow to like it after dealing with headaches of stop loss with 35mm adapters. I normally shoot event such as: Our own movie productions, wedding, and events such as Hot Import Nights, with my trusty Xh A1, but since we are moving in a more production oriented direction we are buying a red. I have gotten a few job offers that i would like to shoot with the red, but i am unsure what to charge the client. I know this might seem like a strange question, but with camera rentals running anywhere from $450-$1000 per day here in Hollywood I am starting to question my $500 per shoot philosophy. What are some of the rates that some of you guys use. I know that this is very dependent upon the shoot but what do you charge by the hour? or day? What would be a good ball park estimate to give to clients who are seeking video service with our red. Ask an example we are going down to Cuzco Peru for 10 weeks to shoot with the Archeological Department, and i have to give him an estimate of labor cost. My question isn't just for this specific production but for others production that range from 2-3 days as well. What do you guys charge for your services?

Hope this question didn't sound too newbie.

Thanks far all the help in advance.
JP

 

[Jason Holly]

Hello JP,

Congrats on your enterprise and your desire to take it to the next level.

Insofar as a charge, for me it to tends to be whatever the market can bear. In your case, LA is chock full of DPs, rental houses, etc...and I'm assuming the market is a bit more competitive than my market, where we tend to be the only game in town.

I would price it out according to a model that allows you to recoup your capital expense in rather short order as depreciation sets in the moment you take delivery. That being said, the RED depreciates much much less than typical digital camera gear as their trade-in program has allowed them to maintain high residual values, thus limiting the secondary market.

Also, keep in mind that you'll probably need to beef up your editing system to handle the demands of 4K footage. A minimum of 5 TB is likely needed as well as maximum RAM for your CPU.

You might want to create a day-rate package that includes a Firewire drive for the client to archive their footage. Say $1,200 for the day of shooting and the archival of the data. Then charge accordingly for your editing time and finishing fees.

On the project down in Peru, if you're using the RED bring two things with you: a RAID storage system and a UPS (Uninterruptable Power Supply) -- I DIT'ed a feature shoot in the Dominican Republic last summer and the power outages nearly killed our storage system.

Also, factor drive space with about 100GBs/day/camera for features, 130GBs/day/camera for commercials and 200+GBs/day for documentary work.

All the best.

 

[JP Castel]

Thanks for the quick reply

Yeah the Red Camera Editing system is a whole new world. Good news is that i use to run an ebay based computer store and have built computers for a long time. You actually might appreciate this i have been currently working on a Hackintosh for the last 3 months. It has yielded some great results and has been super stable at a fraction of the cost but it is not without its problems. After dealing with over 7tb of sata drives i have been looking around at quite a few different options. Since i boot my computer in to both OSX, Vista, and ubuntu I needed something that could handle read and right from all OS so naturally i went with linux but it is a tiresome project. I should be getting all the parts in for my server build soon. My idea is to Ethernet and/or fiber optic connect to the samba server, which should contain 10tb of ntsf and HFS+ formated drives. I am also using the server as my home entertainment center so i can use my living room as a viewing space for clients during production. Hopefully it should all work out but it has been quite i project. I am gearing up the server for cuzco but i am still considering what route i should take on raid. Do you think mirrored backup is crucial? Sorry for the long tangent.

How much space do you have of storage? I guess i will have to buy some more tb drives

As for the price thanks for giving me an honest answer i imagined it would be somewhere around that price. I have setup quite a comprehensive model for gaining back the capital through estimates ranging around $900 per day, so it seems i allocated appropriately.

I was going to post about the trip down to Cuzco once we order the camera next week, but thanks for the advice in advance. I will definitely grab a UPS before i head down there i can't imagine loosing any red footage. What other crucial supplies would you say you used during your shoot in the Dominican Republic. I have been looking into rain camera cover options on the forum, but i haven't yet reached a decision. I am still thinking saran wrap, Any Ideas? We are mostly shooting in the Machu Pichu area on a dig, but i am hoping to take a trip into the amazon as well.

Thanks again for all the help
JP

 

[David W. Jones]

Why not seek help from talented business & marketing students at UCLA.

IMHO, this is the biggest blunder that video/film production people make.
They start a business because they are good with a camera, but they haven't a clue how to successfully manage a business, and end up selling off gear they can't pay for and closing down their business.

 

[JP Castel]

Yeah
I have seen my fair share of free lancers going into what they would like to call bankruptcy as well, but I learned a bit of business strategy through my Ebay endeavors. I also use to sell SQL Code databases through an LLC corp enterprise as well. I do understand the concern however. I have only recently started on my film career path, but as all eager tech enthusiasts i do have a tendency to get sucked into some of the latest and greatest technologies despite there expense. Your concern is definitely a legitimate one and i have considered it. I am actually a Business/Econ major here at UCLA, but as confident as i sound i have sought a bunch of advice from peers, friends, family, and even professors. I have thought long and hard over the Red, but we are just finishing our final agreements and legal documentation for the S-Corp we are forming so i am feeling a little bit better about our financial security. I know how non legitimate the Film and Photography Society as UCLA sounds but i believe we are generating enough overhead to support the purchase. Well that is what we can hope however.

I really do appreciate the concern, after going through these agreement i must say that it is all a bit scary. Here i am about to turn 21 and i am already signing on the dotted line right?

I have always operated on a friendly make some money, have some fun shooting basis, but only in the recent year have i switched to filming for a profit, which is nice, for a change. I am looking to give friendly clients good rates on the Red, but i have realized that i must be realistic to support financial safety.

Anyways i was just wondering what some of the pro's out there charge for their service. I keep realizing more and more how much of a different playing field the red camera is on. I just got trapped in an audio thread for 3 hours... There goes my work flow.

 

[Matt Ferraro]

I cannot specifically talk about what you might need for the RED camera in Cuzco and the Amazon but I spent a month in the Cuzco area and 6 months in the Amazon shooting a doco on the Sony f900. My biggest friends were garbage bags. I'd use them to cover the camera quickly when the sky would just open up and the rain would come down in sheets or when going from an air conditioned room out into the steamy jungle. I the turn camera on, put it in the bag (with lens attached), and bring it outside. I keep checking the camera with my hand to make sure it is not too hot but also no longer cold from the air conditioning. Once the camera has had a chance to acclimate and come up to temperature I remove it from the bag. By doing this I alleviated two problems. One, condensation on the lens, which can be a pain in the butt when you need to shoot quickly. Two, the HDCAM tape sticking in the transport mechanism. The latter will obviously not be a problem for you since your are tapeless, but maybe it will avoid some other RED specific problems.
Cheers,
Matt

 

[C.B. Lorch]

Your post is interesting to me for more than just the idea of going rates. I wasn't able to tell from your post if this is an endeavor that would be funded by the University or by a private sector entity. I tend to have a serious problem with tax dollars being used to fund something that will compete in the private sector. If your only clients are other agencies within the University as seems the case with the Peru project, then that is one thing, but the minute you begin reaching outside of those walls it becomes a huge conflict to me.
Before I launch any further into this perhaps you could clarify who is working for who, and who is paying for what.

 

[J. Bernard Vallon]

I tend to have a serious problem with tax dollars being used to fund something that will compete in the private sector...

Second!

Unless of course the entire system is broken and doing more harm than good to the people as a whole, like the health care industry. However the motion picture industry is far from broken, so I completely agree.

Regardless, the minute you are providing your clients with content, and not just a service, you should charge dramatically more. Working as a shooter who owns some gear, your price is a reflection of the $$ gear you own, and the difficulty to use it. When you are providing a finished piece, your price is a reflection of the quality work you deliver, and the level of creativity and scarcity of that work.

1 day red shoot with an AC who owns a red = ~$1500

1 day red shoot that ends in a finished edited piece for the client ~$15,000

 

[JP Castel]

I wasn't able to tell from your post if this is an endeavor that would be funded by the University or by a private sector entity.

I do agree that my previous posts have been a bit unclear. I am buying the Red with my own saving. In no way am i gaining any financial support from the university. The irony is that the UC system in general doesn't even grant the UCLA Copyright name to be used in association with clubs orchestrated on campus let alone funding them. As an example we can't say that we are the UCLA Film and Photography Society, but rather the FPS at UCLA. It is all a bit ridiculous if you as me. I am starting a small business with a partner after we have both realized the dangers of filming without insurance and a legitimate legal protection. The introduction of a camera with the financial weight of the red has pushed us a bit into this process, but in the end it will help us to grow.

 

[C.B. Lorch]

That being the case, then congrats and good luck! :biggrin:

Back to your initial question regarding rates. I'm in a small market and while we do now charge a small premium for shoots that we deem RED worthy, it's as much for the support gear (laptop,reader,drives, etc.) as it is for the camera itself. That's mainly due to the fact that we're using RED not because our client asks for it, but instead because we chose it as the most cost effective solution to get the quality of picture we wanted. When you compare it to a Varicam or CineAlta package it should really be at a discount rather than a premium in some respects. Now, depending on what glass and accessories you're including then that could change, but I think it is funny how a camera that costs less than my SDX900 did new can garner any kind of premium price. I think the purchase availability now of the RED will put a quick curve on supply-demand, so charge what you can while you can I guess.

 

[Lenny Manfred]

i don't know why no one has asked what else you have in that red package. i strongly believe that the price should be based on what lenses, tripod, monitors, etc. you have. if you have an angenieux 24-290 vs a red 18-50, that should play a part. also should your experience, and your talent, but that last one is a little hard to put a dollar amount to it.

in terms of recouping the money on the equipment, i used to have a rough 100 to 1 rule. basically, for every $1,000 of equipment, you charge $10 to rent it, but that is from the betacam days, when a camera would last you 5 years. now, with technology changing so often, i say it is more like 50 to 1, except for glass, that can still be 100-1. so, if you spent 30k on your red package as a whole (including tripod, monitors, matte box, etc., but not your post equipment, that is separate), you charge $600 for the gear. the concept being that you would recover your investment if you worked 50 days in a year. now, remember, rental places have 3 or even 2 day weeks, so for a shoot like the one in peru, you would probably charge $1,200 per week for the camera, but you charge daily for yourself.


now about what to charge for yourself. in your case i think that would be about $250 per day based on your experience, if you are really gifted maybe $350. more than that, you are competing with people that have a lot more experience and are working for less these days because of the bad economy.

i don't want people out there to freak. everything i said here applies to the LA market only, because that is the only market i know. like someone else said here before, if you live in an area where you are the only game in town, i guess you can set your rates as you see fit, or at what your local market will allow. but LA has nothing but REDs and out of work d.p.s right now, so competition is a little stiffer.

good luck.

 

[Chris M.]

Second!

Unless of course the entire system is broken and doing more harm than good to the people as a whole, like the health care industry. However the motion picture industry is far from broken, so I completely agree.

Regardless, the minute you are providing your clients with content, and not just a service, you should charge dramatically more. Working as a shooter who owns some gear, your price is a reflection of the $$ gear you own, and the difficulty to use it. When you are providing a finished piece, your price is a reflection of the quality work you deliver, and the level of creativity and scarcity of that work.

1 day red shoot with an AC who owns a red = ~$1500

1 day red shoot that ends in a finished edited piece for the client ~$15,000

Wow - Starting out with Political Propaganda.

Didn't think we would be going down this road - but since it's started. The US has the best health care system in the world. If you don't think so, go live in another country for a period of time then come back. More cancer patients die in England because they can't get the proper medicine. The Govt. refuses to give it to them (a form of triage).

NOW - NO MORE POLITICS, PLEASE.

As to the intent of the post -
I agree with several previous posts, and that you should price your gear accordingly. You have multiple options for this.

1. Find a rental house close to you and match pricing with a comprable package - they're going to have to pay for the gear anyway - if they want the high quality of shooting on the RED. Then, you can guage what you would like for your services (how much you think you're worth). Bear in mind that what most people believe is a fair amount for their time may be more than what your potential client will be willing to pay. You will have to find a happy medium - and the only way to find this is through trial and error.

2. Call your local cable company who supplies the small commercials for local businesses. You can guage what they spend on their work and match it. It's cheap, unimaginative work, but it will build a reel - and I'll be willing to be tyou the producers at these places are not putting much PIZAZ into the work they're doing. If you've got talent, you will quickly make a name in those smaller, local circles. And, you'll make some "bread and butter" money to be able to pay back your initial investmenst.

These are only two options out of a million varieties. I would be very careful. Without a reel to support prices like the $15,000. per project price tag, you will not only fail to get the gig, but you will also run the risk of not getting a future meeting with that potential client.

The work you have done in the past tends to set your requested costs. Just because someone owns a RED doesn't mean you can go out and demand a specific price for a job.

Business owners tend to want experience without the cost of paying for it. So, IMHO you may be best quoting the rental of the camera and then offering inexpensive services, to make sure you get the job - then blow their minds with quality of the work you do.

As to the shoot in Peru, I think Lennywood has hit the nail on the head. My post is directed for your local area and to help you build your local business. The big hits tend to be far and few between - until you've made that name.

I know it's not much help, but it's where I started out several years ago.

 

[Martin Drew]

Hey Chris

Errr... You shouldn't give a paragraph of your political opinion and then say no more politics please. If you don't want to hear politics then surely it would be best to leave yours out of the thread too.

M

 

[Chris M.]

Hey Chris

Errr... You shouldn't give a paragraph of your political opinion and then say no more politics please. If you don't want to hear politics then surely it would be best to leave yours out of the thread too.

M

True - and I'm seeking help for the inability to control myself.