What is the best Shuter angle to use?

[Richard Lowther]

Hi,
I am working with a guy who insists that shooting with a 360 degree shutter angle is the best setting for our MX RED One. He says it gives smoother looking moving back grounds. I have always used 180 degree shutter. Is 360 degree shutter a better setting to use? When shooting for PAL TV.

Thanks
Richard

 

[Andy Jarosz]

Yuck. On a big screen, most people can tell when you're shooting with a 360 degree shutter. It just looks video-y and wrong. There's a reason 180 is standard.

 

[Graeme Nattress]

360 shutter will give you a rather "videoy" feel to the motion.

Graeme

 

[Richard Lowther]

Thanks

Richard

 

[Aaron Champion]

uh, honestly if you can do 180. Personally, I like a 45 angle when ever I can shoot at that. I know, you need more light, like I said, when I can I like to shoot at 45.

 

[Paul Lee]

+1 for 180 (1/48) minimum

 

[David Mullen ASC]

Hi,
I am working with a guy who insists that shooting with a 360 degree shutter angle is the best setting for our MX RED One. He says it gives smoother looking moving back grounds. I have always used 180 degree shutter. Is 360 degree shutter a better setting to use? When shooting for PAL TV.

Thanks
Richard

Well, you fall into the basic problem with low sampling rates like 24 fps, 25 fps, etc. No shutter, i.e. 360 degrees, gives you maximum blur per frame and the smoothest motion, but it's a very blurred motion, so resolution drops unless nothing is moving, and it doesn't look very film-like because film cameras can't use a 360 degree shutter.

But with a 180 degree shutter, you get sharper motion but due to the low sampling rate, you also get more strobing. But it looks more film-like since most film is shot with a 180 degree shutter at low sampling rates like 24, 25, etc.

If you actually want smoother motion and better motion resolution, you need to increase the frame rate. But then you run into the problem that projection speeds are not at those high rates.

Now sometimes I'll use a 270 degree shutter for the extra exposure, particularly if the amount of motion in the scene is low so the blurring won't be distracting (like someone talking in a dark restaurant, as opposed to a fight scene in the back alley behind the restaurant.)

 

[George Butterfield]

OK, What happens when the mysterium is exposed to light? How do the pixels respond to light. There is no shutter, so how can there be a 180 degree shutter? It's all just exposure time isn't it? The shorter the exposure the less blur per frame, but more jerkiness between frames. Do all the pixels receive light at the same time, or is there a "batting" order? (which could simulate a shutter on film)

 

[David Mullen ASC]

OK, What happens when the mysterium is exposed to light? How do the pixels respond to light. There is no shutter, so how can there be a 180 degree shutter? It's all just exposure time isn't it? The shorter the exposure the less blur per frame, but more jerkiness between frames. Do all the pixels receive light at the same time, or is there a "batting" order? (which could simulate a shutter on film)

Yes, the shutter on the Red One is electronic, not physical, you are basically changing the exposure time. There is the whole sensor read-out speed issue which affects skewing on CMOS sensors.

 

[Richard Lowther]

Thanks for all the input

Richard

 

[Shawn Nelson]

uh, honestly if you can do 180. Personally, I like a 45 angle when ever I can shoot at that. I know, you need more light, like I said, when I can I like to shoot at 45.

Interesting. Why is this? Are you shooting more action stuff? 1/96 (45 deg) definitely has a more 'crisp' feel to it.

 

[I Bloom]

OK, What happens when the mysterium is exposed to light? How do the pixels respond to light. There is no shutter, so how can there be a 180 degree shutter? It's all just exposure time isn't it? The shorter the exposure the less blur per frame, but more jerkiness between frames. Do all the pixels receive light at the same time, or is there a "batting" order? (which could simulate a shutter on film)

Yes there is a batting order. It's extremely fast but still exists. The time between the top of the image and the bottom of the image beginning to expose is called the read/reset time. The longer this time the more skewing will occur. The read reset time is usually a constant number, depending on the sensor design, and sometimes the firmware build.

The actual amount of skew is based on the ratio of horizontal movement of objects in the frame over the read/reset time of the particular camera.

Shorter exposure times appear to have more apparent skewing. In fact longer exposures have the same amount of actual skewing but the skew is hidden inside of the increased motion blur.

IBloom

 

[Christian Berg-Nielsen]

Michael Mann and his DOP Dante Spinotti used 360 degree shutter on the film Public Enemies. I think it looked very "videoish". I think it was shot on the Sony F23. A lot of clipped highlights didn't help the look either...

 

[Bob Gruen]

When you get really good at your craft it gets situational. Best approach is to try to visualize what a given still frame would look like then try to imagine the frame to frame look during playback. Consider both the exposed frames and the changes during the down time between exposures.

The majority of films are 180 degree shutter, so that is what audiances are used to seeing. But if you want a panning or dolly shot at a rate that produces judder then adding to the shutter to create more blur may help if you are at either end of that no-man's-land gap. If you are shooting green screen then blur and smear should be minimized , so rule of thumb is stop down on the lens, reduce the shutter angle, and mind the subject's edges while focusing. If you are in a situation where you do not have enough light then adding to the shutter also helps calm noise (not as much as you might think though).

Bob

 

[Marc Wielage]

uh, honestly if you can do 180. Personally, I like a 45 angle when ever I can shoot at that. I know, you need more light, like I said, when I can I like to shoot at 45.

My only problem with that is that the 45-degree shutter stuff tends to shout "hey! Look at me!" It's turned into a huge visual cliche in a lot of action movies and TV shows these days, to the point where the moment I see it, I'm like, "OK, cue the automatic weapons and explosions."

I think sometimes, less is more, and a standard 180-degree shutter is a lot less in-your-face. I can see it being used judiciously for certain things, but not for a whole project. I also agree that the 360-degree shutter is way to electronick-y for me, but so much of it boils down to the creative choice by the filmmaker.

Funny how a lot of people think that Spielberg and Janusz Kamiński invented the 45-degree shutter look in 1998 for Saving Private Ryan, when it's actually been out for a long, long time.