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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

What is the best handheld, HD, awesome low light camcorder out there right now?

Rick Darge

Rick Darge

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I'm looking for something that can fit in the palm of my hand, has excellent low light capibilities, and can do 720p video or higher. Does such a thing exist? I like the Canon HV20 but it gets grainy at night so I've heard.
 
For low-light performance I've heard the 5dmk2 owns the Red and is the best out there right now.
 
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  • #5
This camera looks amazing. Can any users out there comment on low light, street light performance? Looking to take thing out into the pitch dark of the night..
 
I've got a buddy who swears by his.

I've got a buddy who swears by his.

Richard Darge said:
This camera looks amazing. Can any users out there comment on low light, street light performance? Looking to take thing out into the pitch dark of the night..
Click to expand...

Check out http://www.usa.canon.com/dlc/controller?act=GetArticleAct&articleID=2086

I've got a friend in Washington that owns one, and he says the night footage is amazing.

Lots of limitation however.

Good luck with your search.

Steve
 
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Um. Why am I shooting on the Red again?

Anyone out there own both cameras? Interested in users that have the Nikon mount on their Red & an EOS to Nikon mount on their Canon 5D.

One thing I am excited about is the image quality to weight ratio. This has to be the lightest, highest quality cam system right now. Plus, it is a dSLR so I think you can get people to react differently while in front of it. This looks awesome for documentary work.
 
I've owned a 5D2 since December and an XH-A1 for several years.

The 5D2 is blazing a path into completely new territory; going places that no other manufacturer will touch (not with a ten foot pole). Other manufacturers have been holding on to outdated technology such as reading every line on the sensor. It took a bold visionary like Canon to have the guts to take the easy way out and start skipping two out of three lines to get the speed up.

The aliasing artifacts that result from line skipping are so bad that just thinking about the 5D2 footage I've seen makes me throw up in my mouth a little. Some people have iron stomachs and the fortitude to watch the 5D2 aliasing artifacts without clawing their eyes out. But the rest of us have already learned the hard way: DO NOT LOOK INTO 5D2 VIDEO WITH REMAINING EYE.

Of course it's not just the aliasing artifacts, which include moire, jaggies, stair-stepping, sparkling, "snap to grid", wavy lines, bands, patterns, fringing, popping, strobing, noise, or false detail. It's also the secondary effects caused by it, including macroblocking, artificially-smoothed areas, posterization, poor resolution, etc.

Canon's other cameras, from $100 to $10,000, have never had aliasing this bad, so perhaps this marks the entry into the untapped "alias lover" market. Until now, these poor, backwards folk have had to make do with poor imitations such as interlace twitter and aliasing added in post-production. But now they can have it directly in their original camera footage.

Other 5D2 issues:

  • Shutter speed. When it says 1/60 it's actually 1/50, and there is no way to actually get 1/60 (180 degree shutter). Check dvinfo.net for the tests on this issue.
  • Poor ergonomics. This might be helped with 3rd-party accessories.
  • Compression artifacts despite the high bit rate. Aliasing is no doubt the main culprit here.
  • Moderately bad skew/wobble/jello (slow read-reset). With careful control of what you shoot it will probably not be visible to the viewer.
  • No control over audio gain, noise pumps up during quiet spots. No audio monitor. Double system sound takes care of that.
  • Recording stops at ~12 minutes. Should be no biggie for you.
  • The live outputs are not that great. The only choice is standard-def embedded in an HDMI signal or composite.
  • No zebras, histograms, peaking, or any other of the useful information I like to have while shooting.
Despite all of those issues, the 5D2 still has one big advantage over video cameras in its price range: sensor size. For lens selection, thin DOF, and low light it's very nice.
 
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Daniel, Thanks for that thorough review. That sums it up nicely. I'm mainly looking for something that I can bike ride with at night and produce great low light images. I can't wait for the Scarlet/Epic for that reason of weightlessness. Haven't seen a lot of the big aliasing problems you're pointing out on Vimeo clips I've been checking out. It seems like once you blow the 5D2 up, that's when problems are more visible? I need to rent one of these suckers and play around. Would you even consider it as a good b-cam to the Red?
 
Daniel, the BEST analysis I've heard yet of Canons cam...I've been wondering about that cam for awhile and you just summed up all the positives and many negatives in 2 minutes...THANKS!

I await Scarlet!

PS I've heard the canon does not do image stabilization either at all or not very good...forgot which, but very shaky footage I've heard...of course a tripod would fix that.
 
I've been looking at the panasonic GH1 sample footage on Vimeo, looks pretty good, low light looks great. Anyone have more info on this cam, pro's, con's?
 
Richard I would not go for 5D MkII just because later the video compression shot with that DSLR is not so useful except to show something on the Internet.

I would still stay with RED1 and if you want to get RED1 in a weight that is something like on a palm of your hand then get/rent Easy Rig 3.

Also for available light shooting you would need the fastest lens as you can afford with that rig,

that means get/rent Master Prime(s) or get /rent RED1 with Canon 50mm or 85mm f/1.2 on Birger.

Now I would not recommend IMS because of a famous RED1 warranty issue but just to mention that you can get with that option even the fastest/sharpest lenses

like a Leica Noctilux f/0.95 or Canon 50mm FD f/1.2 both very sharp wide open.

What I am talking about you could watch it from the following handheld test examples on RED1:

1. Canon FD 50mm f/1.2 test example 1

2. Canon FD 50mm f/1.2 test example 2

3. Leica Noctilux-M 50mm f/0.95 asph (NEW)

4. Leica Noctilux-M 50mm f/1.0 (OLD)

Also your Mantis RED1 handheld rig you could I'm sure re-configure it in something similar like mine handheld example on the picture below:

Leica_SummicronR-50mm_02.JPG
 
Thanks Sanjin.

I should have been more specific. I'm looking for something that I can shoot with and ride a bike at the same time. Epic will suit that need when the time comes but for this upcoming project, I need lightweight / high quality low light
 
Then you could go for something like this

600x407


Sony POV HXR-MC1 that I tested riding my bike through Vienna and this video test shot has Peter Roehsler a member of this forum.

Also peter has letus attached to this camera and can use a lot of other great still glass...

Maybe you could contact him and ask for more info.

He is nice guy and speaks English pretty good.

Another youtube test example>>>

Official Sony link>>>
 
get a bogen super clamp, mount the strongest compact light on to your handlebars that you can find (a 3 way head will allow you to rotate the light as much as you need to...), shoot hv20 with impunity...

there is really no such thing as a good HD low light handy cam, the chips tend to be too small.
 
Richard Darge said:
Haven't seen a lot of the big aliasing problems you're pointing out on Vimeo clips I've been checking out. It seems like once you blow the 5D2 up, that's when problems are more visible?
Click to expand...

It's easiest to see in the high resolution videos, but it's also visible in the low resolution videos. It requires any fine detail in the image, so the reason you may not have already noticed it in vimeo could be:

  • Out of focus due to the difficulty of pulling focus during the shot.
  • Only having the tiniest sliver of depth of field, so that the aliasing only occurs in a very small part of the image (e.g. eyeball only, not glasses).
  • Diffraction. Without ND filters, it's common to need f-numbers as narrow as f/22 or f/16. The diffraction softens the image enough to prevent a lot of aliasing.
  • Post production. There are some things to be done to hide the aliasing a little bit after the fact.

Most of all, the reason people don't notice the aliasing is because they just don't see it. It's like how some people can't tell the difference between a 2K digital cinema and watching You Tube on their mobile phone. I'm surprised manufacturers have wasted so much effort on fighting aliasing when the 5D2 proves that nobody, not even among photographers, is bothered by aliasing. Well, almost nobody. We are few and far between.

Richard Darge said:
I need to rent one of these suckers and play around. Would you even consider it as a good b-cam to the Red?
Click to expand...

If you add a strong-enough optical "soft" filter to the 5D2, it will prevent the worst of the aliasing artifacts. If you don't mind the difference in resolution (e.g. you're only delivering in SD), and you can deal with all the other issues (e.g. 30p), then yes, I think it would be an excellent b-cam.
 
The 5D2 will be perfect for your ride on the bike. There is a video somewhere on Vimeo showing some guys who mounted at 5D2 to the handlebars of their BMX bikes and rode around a city at night. They even did stunts and backflips with the camera mounted!

As Browning mentioned, there can be aliasing, but only sometimes, triggered by patterns in bricks, roofs, water, etc.
 
Richard Darge said:
Thanks Sanjin.

I should have been more specific. I'm looking for something that I can shoot with and ride a bike at the same time. Epic will suit that need when the time comes but for this upcoming project, I need lightweight / high quality low light
Click to expand...
I'd actually recommend a CCD camcorder for this. Riding a bike while shooting with a slow CMOS sensor camera will likely result in jello wobble. Your mileage may vary.

I'd rent the 5DII and try it out before plunking down the cash, to see if it works for you.
 
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