What is Stage 3 worth

[Mark T Workman]

@Mark Workman - slightly Off Topic - but Check out the Allstar Cine Mount for R1, or the Nikon Prolock mount for R1 from Optitek. Both are pretty great Nikon mounts for the R1.

@Robert - Agree with you new __MX__ body is 25k.
MX Sensor upgrade is I think 5750

Thanks for the info Dan and the point on the MX Sensor upgrade $5750 is well taken...

I have heard (but not confirmed) that you would also have to pay in advance for that MX Sensor upgrade as well before you could in fact claim that stage 3 Epic X upgrade if the R1 in question is not already an MX. This would make the Stage 3 R1 value (+- $5750) to someone just concerned with jumping in line for rental values, FOR A LIMITED TIME ONLY, tack on 7K more after the new year!

 

[Elsie N]

Thanks for the info Dan and the point on the MX Sensor upgrade $5750 is well taken...

I have heard (but not confirmed) that you would also have to pay in advance for that MX Sensor upgrade as well before you could in fact claim that stage 3 Epic X upgrade if the R1 in question is not already an MX.

I've not heard that. I'm pretty sure the only requirement for trading in a Stage 3 R1 for an Epic is that it be in good shape. I have treated my R1 M sensor camera as though it were worth it's weight in copper because of that.

 

[christopher witzke]

I've not heard that. I'm pretty sure the only requirement for trading in a Stage 3 R1 for an Epic is that it be in good shape. I have treated my R1 M sensor camera as though it were worth it's weight in copper because of that.

Same here.

 

[Mark T Workman]

I've not heard that. I'm pretty sure the only requirement for trading in a Stage 3 R1 for an Epic is that it be in good shape. I have treated my R1 M sensor camera as though it were worth it's weight in copper because of that.

Good for you Elsie but I do have very serious doubts you're right on this one. This (MX upgrade required) is what I was told by a reputable seller just before I was out bid on an original R1 (body only) that also had a stage 3 upgrade which I thought could barely afford (simply being interested in getting shooting at 4K for now) but exploring the Epic upgrade option. It actually makes sense to me that Red would do this (if it is true) and I am glad that the issue is being discussed here. I would also be very curious if Mr. Frank knows anything about this since he has one to sell?

 

[Curran Giddens]

AFAIK, you can trade in an unexecuted Red One with or without the MX sensor upgrade. Either way you get the same $17,500 discount on the Epic-X Stage 3 package.

 

[Mark T Workman]

AFAIK, you can trade in an unexecuted Red One with or without the MX sensor upgrade. Either way you get the same $17,500 discount on the Epic-X Stage 3 package.

Who is YOU? Are you absolutely sure this isn't only true for the original owner? This is definitely NOT WHAT I WAS TOLD as a prospective buyer of an original R1 body.

 

[Elsie N]

Who is YOU?

He is a senior member with impeccable thread creds.

 

[sergio arguello]

i remember hearing the same thing you would have to pay the upgrade. I get the distinct sense a lot of the dialogue comes from emotion on this and not business logic. Why would it be equal with or without an upgrade? that would unbalance the trade in option and if nothing else red has
been quite balanced toward their clientele. I'm not saying that you have to pay the upgrade but if I'm not mistaken you may be getting back 1250.00 when you upgrade. Don't ask, just something i recall...

 

[Elsie N]

i remember hearing the same thing you would have to pay the upgrade. I get the distinct sense a lot of the dialogue comes from emotion on this and not business logic. Why would it be equal with or without an upgrade? that would unbalance the trade in option and if nothing else red has
been quite balanced toward their clientele. I'm not saying that you have to pay the upgrade but if I'm not mistaken you may be getting back 1250.00 when you upgrade. Don't ask, just something i recall...

This was discussed at some length a few years ago. When customers asked RED why they should upgrade a camera they were just going to trade in, RED's response was that they would get the use of the MX sensor R1 for a few months before having to turn it in, so that would make it cost effective to do so. Of course, that choice became more and more valid when the bug in the ASIC occurred, the tsunami happened... probably something else happened I can't recall. But it was left up to the customer to decide.

 

[Mark T Workman]

He is a senior member with impeccable thread creds.

Not questioning his thread credentials Elsie, just whether or not he's an ORIGINAL OWNER and as such, may not actually understand the way the (new?) rules (True or Not?) were explained to me. As Sergio was discussing in his own way, this is the question here: It would still appear to me to be the case that, unless you are the ORIGINAL OWNER of an unexecuted R1, you are expected to also pay the price of the R1 MX upgrade before you can buy in to the stage 3 Epic. Probably doesn't effect you at all but would definitely effect me or those rich rental operators who can afford it.

Of course, it would be even better to learn that you're both right and I was not given good info but I sincerely doubt that's the case. Obviously it is a huge turn off for anyone who doesn't have 40-50K worth of play around cash to lose without consequence. I guess we should all be in the rental business...

 

[Elsie N]

...As Sergio was discussing in his own way, this is the question here: It would still appear to me to be the case that, unless you are the ORIGINAL OWNER of an unexecuted R1, you are expected to also pay the price of the R1 MX upgrade before you can buy in to the stage 3 Epic...

I see the distinction you are making now. I have no idea what RED's policy might be in that case.

 

[Paul S.]

I see the distinction you are making now. I have no idea what RED's policy might be in that case.

It's tricky as there doesn't really seem to be a policy, and Red have been fairly silent on the whole matter, a few mutterings of disapproval notwithstanding. But I'm reaching the conclusion that with all the risk of the unknown, such as needing to pay for an MX upgrade, or ending up with only a 90 day warranty, it's probably safest just to pick up an Epic X Brain for $28K, and pick and choose the other bits and pieces at the time.

If you have an unexecuted R1, surely the best bet is to hold on to it, upgrade to Epic - and then put the Epic on the market once you know the facts. Surely an Epic in hand will be worth more than this whole mysterious clandestine situation?

 

[Mark T Workman]

It's tricky as there doesn't really seem to be a policy, and Red have been fairly silent on the whole matter, a few mutterings of disapproval notwithstanding. But I'm reaching the conclusion that with all the risk of the unknown, such as needing to pay for an MX upgrade, or ending up with only a 90 day warranty, it's probably safest just to pick up an Epic X Brain for $28K, and pick and choose the other bits and pieces at the time.

If you have an unexecuted R1, surely the best bet is to hold on to it, upgrade to Epic - and then put the Epic on the market once you know the facts. Surely an Epic in hand will be worth more than this whole mysterious clandestine situation?

The major problem everyone seems to have in common here is CASH FLOW. Like so many here in Los Angeles, I lost a job post production I held for over 18 years so spending money that would otherwise go to rent and food for a non shooting situation does not appeal to me at all. In my spare time, I built a super computer PC put an Adobe Suite in it and was editing time lapse and ready to go when things went bad in Japan. Spending $29,500 for an Epic brain I can't use is simply not a responsible thing for me to do. Short of any changes in policy, my feeling is that I'd be better off NOT SPENDING and waiting until the $7K penalty kicks in to build my stripped down R1 or KEEP WAITING on the Epic S. i don't like these alternatives but they are more realistic.

However, I think you made a very astute comment on "only a 90 day warranty" Paul. To that end there are two things I feel RED could do to be more fair toward the entire range of prospective customers:

1) Make the "1 year $7K penalty for passing on Epic X upgrade applicable from the date of purchase of a new or used R1 during the entire remaining year of 2011."
I think this would address both the cash flow and the Japan (lag) problem more effectively.

2) Allow (strapped) original R1 owners who NEED! to get out THE RIGHT TO SELL THEIR EPIC X UPGRADE package SEPARATELY FROM THEIR CAMERAS.

Sergio is definitely right that the Stage 3 jump in line has a separate value for some, so why shouldn't those feeling the squeeze of these hard times be allowed to sell it to the FAT CATS SEPARATELY? This would also be rewarding them for supporting RED originally... Good thread Sergio and thank you!

 

[Johnny Friday]

Good for you Elsie but I do have very serious doubts you're right on this one. This (MX upgrade required) is what I was told by a reputable seller just before I was out bid on an original R1 (body only) that also had a stage 3 upgrade which I thought could barely afford (simply being interested in getting shooting at 4K for now) but exploring the Epic upgrade option. It actually makes sense to me that Red would do this (if it is true) and I am glad that the issue is being discussed here. I would also be very curious if Mr. Frank knows anything about this since he has one to sell?

NOPE---if you Did the uprgade you get an extra $1250 discount on EPIC....that was all there was to it.

 

[christopher witzke]

NOPE---if you Did the uprgade you get an extra $1250 discount on EPIC....that was all there was to it.

you are correct sir.

 

[Mark T Workman]

NOPE---if you Did the uprgade you get an extra $1250 discount on EPIC....that was all there was to it.

So what you're actually saying here Johnny is that what we're discussing should be considered a $4K+ (MX upgrade) sales scam and I (luckily) just missed out on it? Wow! Buyer Beware...

 

[Johnny Friday]

So what you're actually saying here Johnny is that what we're discussing should be considered a $4K+ (MX upgrade) sales scam and I (luckily) just missed out on it? Wow! Buyer Beware...

what? i'm sorry, is that what your read from my statement? What i said was NOPE to the poster that said you MUST have done the MX upgrade in order to turn your camera in for full $17.5 credit...which is not the case.

...if you have the original M sensor and did not upgrade to the BETTER IMAGE quality MX sensor...you still get full credit of $17.5k trade in towards Epic...If you DID do the $5,750 MX sensor upgrade (as i did on TWO R1s) and then shot for over a year with them...and shot superior images to the M sensor....you still get your $17.5k credit AND an additional $1,250 credit (since you did the MX upgrade)....How is that a sales scam? to allow you to upgrade your sensor and ALSO get a credit of $1250 when you trade it in for a new camera---are you an I inhabiting the same planet? I'm by no means a fanboy...but i have never owned another camera system that allowed me to upgrade my sensor for a better one at a minimal cost. NOR have i owned a camera where the company is giving me a full trade in value for the NEW & BETTER camera system....can you tell me a better deal?
>>>In other words let me take your scenario and present a slightly different view IF YOU HAD UPGRADED TO MX sensor: buy the body for $17.5k then upgrade for $5,750 to MX...now stage 3 comes...you turn in your camera for an EPIC....well, what did it cost you? $4,500usd...YEP, must be a scam here....Anyway, just a bit of kidding and maybe you were just unaware of the math in this...as it does get complicated.....

 

[Ketch Rossi]

NOPE---if you Did the uprgade you get an extra $1250 discount on EPIC....that was all there was to it.

Sorry to correct this... BUT... the $1,250 is only a virtual discount towards the STAGE II, not the stages after that, so if you have stage 3 eligible RED ONE,
with or without MX sensor, the trade in value remains the same, $17,500, and the balance to be paid remains the same too, $10,500.

Unless RED has went WAY out of their way on this one, without me finding out and decided to extend this Virtual Discount to other stages as well, but I seriously doubt that,
because would make me a not so well informed Red camera Broker, he he, and make RED a seriously Outragesouly (is this a word?) almost stupidly Generous company.

 

[Mark T Workman]

Not to be impolite Johnny but you're either drinking or need to brush up on your English/writing as well your critical reading skills...

The scenario is simple, you (ARE NOT ALREADY AN R1 OWNER!) want to buy an original 4K R1 for whatever the asking price and it happens to have a stage 3 or whatever time sensitive upgrade, $7K penalty looming if you want to buy the Epic after the year ends.

However, AS A BUYER, NOT AN OWNER, you are looking at that 4K price (whatever it is) plus the the full sensor upgrade price $5750 for MX added on before you can actually buy into and then wait on your Epic. Good to know as an owner you get a $1250 credit but I don't think it effects me as a buyer/Not R1 owner unless you're saying it knocks down my end by 5750 - 1250? I wouldn't think so and I'm not thinking this was a sales scam any longer. They behaved very professionally as far as I could tell.

I will agree with you that it gets complicated for everyone/anyone and the facts are certainly not ABUNDANTLY CLEAR!

 

[christopher witzke]

Sorry to correct this... BUT... the $1,250 is only a virtual discount towards the STAGE II, not the stages after that, so if you have stage 3 eligible RED ONE,
with or without MX sensor, the trade in value remains the same, $17,500, and the balance to be paid remains the same too, $10,500.

Unless RED has went WAY out of their way on this one, without me finding out and decided to extend this Virtual Discount to other stages as well, but I seriously doubt that,
because would make me a not so well informed Red camera Broker, he he, and make RED a seriously Outragesouly (is this a word?) almost stupidly Generous company.

I think the word you're looking for is " Stugeneroutiosly"