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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

What is EPIC?

What is truly Epic is the ability to actually record the full linear dynamic range of the sensor in Redcode raw.
If you are recording to Prores, or any REC709 compliant video codec, the maximum recordable linear DR you have to play with in the legal limits between 0 IRE and 104 IRE is a bit less than 7 stops. :smilielol5:
 
Jannard said:
We know what the future looks like and how to get there... without killing our customers.

Jim
Click to expand...

He he it seems that some other companies advertasing that the 2k is more than enugh for todays works case they cant offer what you and your team bring to table jim
Hats of to you and red team
 
Zach Gray said:
Were these russian folks after 2006?
http://www.kinor.ru/en/products/camera/dc4k/

And were the iconoskop folks post 2006 as well?
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Kinor has been around for a LONG time. I have a Kinor 16CX-2M (16mm somewhat similar to an Eclair) and a Konvas 1M (35mm made by same company, somewhat similar to an Eclair morphed with an Arri 35-2C) that I bought in St. Petersburg in 1995. The Kinor 35H was the primary camera for feature films from the Soviet era. They also made a really cheap wind-up 16mm similar to a Bolex called a Krasnogorsk-3 that was popular with film schools for awhile. See http://konvas.org/ for more info/history. How much of their digital products actually exist is unclear. You'll notice that they;re looking for an investor...
 
David Rasberry said:
What is truly Epic is the ability to actually record the full linear dynamic range of the sensor in Redcode raw.
If you are recording to Prores, or any REC709 compliant video codec, the maximum recordable linear DR you have to play with in the legal limits between 0 IRE and 104 IRE is a bit less than 7 stops. :smilielol5:
Click to expand...

I'm not sure how that jibes with recording 14-stops of DR in Log-C on the Alexa in ProRes 4444...
 
David Rasberry said:
What is truly Epic is the ability to actually record the full linear dynamic range of the sensor in Redcode raw.
If you are recording to Prores, or any REC709 compliant video codec, the maximum recordable linear DR you have to play with in the legal limits between 0 IRE and 104 IRE is a bit less than 7 stops. :smilielol5:
Click to expand...

No - that's not true at all - a line drawing, which is 1 bit, can express a scene that contains an infinite amount of dynamic range. you can re-map any dynamic range into any bitspace/color range. An example; let's say I use an Epic to shoot someone at the bottom of a cave with tall buildings in bright sunlight in the background outside - 16 stops. I then display this image - graded so that the bright building and the person in the cave are all clearly visible - I could convert this to a 4 bit gif image and then display it on a 1998 lcd screen with maybe 4 stops of brightness change between lightest pixel and darkest pixel. Yes, it will look washed out, but I will still see information from areas of brightness covering 16 stops. What limits dynamic range is the sensor, not the bitspace of the recording medium. The F3 with a bright gamma can do about 12 stops, maybe 13 on the 8bit xdcam codec. Of course, the smaller your recording bitspace the lesser your grading options, but that's a separate issue.
 
David Rasberry said:
What is truly Epic is the ability to actually record the full linear dynamic range of the sensor in Redcode raw.
If you are recording to Prores, or any REC709 compliant video codec, the maximum recordable linear DR you have to play with in the legal limits between 0 IRE and 104 IRE is a bit less than 7 stops. :smilielol5:
Click to expand...

I think you are mixing up your ranges. There is no baked in limit to how the sensor's readings are represented in a coded like Prores 4x4. Alexa does just fine with far more than 7 stops.
 
1,000 Epic-M's out in the field the man says. Not too bad profits on a $58,000 piece of machinery in what, 7-9 months?
 
Rob Ruffo said:
No - that's not true at all - a line drawing, which is 1 bit, can express a scene that contains an infinite amount of dynamic range. you can re-map any dynamic range into any bitspace/color range. An example; let's say I use an Epic to shoot someone at the bottom of a cave with tall buildings in bright sunlight in the background outside - 16 stops. I then display this image - graded so that the bright building and the person in the cave are all clearly visible - I could convert this to a 4 bit gif image and then display it on a 1998 lcd screen with maybe 4 stops of brightness change between lightest pixel and darkest pixel. Yes, it will look washed out, but I will still see information from areas of brightness covering 16 stops. What limits dynamic range is the sensor, not the bitspace of the recording medium. The F3 with a bright gamma can do about 12 stops, maybe 13 on the 8bit xdcam codec. Of course, the smaller your recording bitspace the lesser your grading options, but that's a separate issue.
Click to expand...

The logarithmic dynamic range of any electronic signal format defined by a voltage range is a hard physical limitation. In the case of encoded video formats the available range between the voltage value of 1 IRE (.007v) and 104 IRE (.728v) expressed as a logarithmic value in Db is calculated as 20*log(.728/.007)= 40.34 Db. Divided by 6Db/stop that comes to a range of 6.72 stops. One can define the range with digital or analog values and split it into as fine a set of values as one cares too, but that does not change the actual DR limits of the legal signal range. Nor does it change the normal logarithmic response curve of human vision. Compression schemes and gamma curves are merely a means of squeezing a visually useful representation of broader dynamic values into the available range of the format, just as a photographer has to do with the DR limits of an ink on paper print. But you sacrifice contrast differences between values at the extreme ends of whatever curve you apply. One could argue that there is an infinite range of values between .007V and 0V, but it is visually meaningless.
The ability to creatively map the values of a full dynamic range recording into the constraints of the final image format in a controlled post environment versus fighting with those constraints while shooting the original is the real EPIC REDvolution.
 
But practically speaking, you aren't limited to 7-stops of workable exposure information when color-correcting a Log-C Alexa image recorded to ProRes so this turns into one of those "my stops are better than your stops" sort of argument for academics. So while a 16-bit linear signal may be more flexible, that doesn't mean that a 10-bit Log image is limited to 7-stops of DR -- if that were true, then film would be limited to 7-stops since it is mainly scanned and color-corrected in 10-bit Log. Not to mention, most features shot on the Red One or Epic end up in a 10-bit Log container with more than 7-stops of DR.
 
David Mullen ASC said:
But practically speaking, you aren't limited to 7-stops of workable exposure information when color-correcting a Log-C Alexa image recorded to ProRes so this turns into one of those "my stops are better than your stops" sort of argument for academics. So while a 16-bit linear signal may be more flexible, that doesn't mean that a 10-bit Log image is limited to 7-stops of DR -- if that were true, then film would be limited to 7-stops since it is mainly scanned and color-corrected in 10-bit Log. Not to mention, most features shot on the Red One or Epic end up in a 10-bit Log container with more than 7-stops of DR.
Click to expand...

These thoughts were an offshoot of another discussion specifically about issues with Prores, which apparently is constrained to REC709 compliance. It was a case where a Sony F3 S-log curve was recorded to an external Prores native recorder and values beyond 104 IRE were hard clipped in the file when opened in FCP or PPro. S-log is not Prores friendly apparently. This is certainly not necessarily true of codecs conforming to other standards.
If I input an REC709 compliant video signal to a projector or flat panel TV, I will not ever measure with a light meter more than a 7 stop dynamic range between black clip and white clip, usually it is much less, more like the 5.5 stops of a log gray scale chart at best. At least for TV this is the bucket we all live within. How the much broader dynamic values of reality are captured and represented in this space is the issue.
No question that modern cameras are capable of capturing remarkable and ever increasing dynamic range, but we are creatively limited by the manufacturer's choices of gamma curves and video codecs as to how that DR is represented. Not necessarily a bad thing for many people.
It is so liberating to finally have the option of actually recording full linear dynamic range limited only by usable range of the sensor and the bit depth of the AD conversion. We may wind up in the same bucket in the end, but at least we don't have to start there.
 
Tim Duran said:
1,000 Epic-M's out in the field the man says. Not too bad profits on a $58,000 piece of machinery in what, 7-9 months?
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Gross revenues of around US$58 million are pretty impressive, yes, although there has probably been some discounting on bulk orders from folks like Peter Jackson. But I'm not sure about profits, if any. Jim et al have told us manufacturing costs are sky-high thanks to both the special post-tsunami part purchases and the hand-machining. And remember, when accounting for everything else you get in the EPIC-M bundle, the difference in price is only about $5-10k depending on how you value accessories.

It's likely gross profits are significant, but I suspect it will take EPIC-X before R&D costs are entirely recouped. I think on the whole, Jim is more concerned about making happy customers than current profits.

D
 
David D. You sound like you would believe the bank presidents who claim that receiving a $10,000,000+ salary is a real sacrafice. The Red guys are making a bundle. I'm not against them making a bundle, either. That's the free enterprise system. And it's a great product. What I'm against is the poor Red management sing song we hear from many Redusers who don't know better.
 
Sony just brought out their s-log (software) update for the F3, and in keeping with Red's spirit of "customer first", it's totally free!

/just kidding, it costs almost $4,000.00
//but it includes a 32 GB memory card which is, ironically, obsoleted by the upgrade
 
-Colorspace- announced they were developing a 4K camera around that time.
-What about Dalsa's Evolution? Was that in 2006 or did that come in 2007?

Kinetta and Dalsa announced before 2006 so what does that mean? Red wasn't the first to do 4k and certainly not the ones who came up with the idea. Your guys' version of a 4k camera was just the most functional. And most importantly, had the funding to actually "finish" the prototype and bring it to market, unlike the other companies mentioned.

So there were several other companies trying to do it at that time. Releasing and announcing are 2 different things but you can't claim that Red was the only ones trying to do it.
 
Tim Duran said:
David D. You sound like you would believe the bank presidents who claim that receiving a $10,000,000+ salary is a real sacrafice. The Red guys are making a bundle. I'm not against them making a bundle, either. That's the free enterprise system. And it's a great product. What I'm against is the poor Red management sing song we hear from many Redusers who don't know better.
Click to expand...

I'd suggest you and I really have no idea if they are "making a bundle" or not. Manufacturing costs vs. selling price are only one part of the equation. Total burdened R&D costs have to be factored in, and we have no idea what those might be.

As an example the ASIC included in each EPIC (actually, I believe their may be 2 on an epic, based on what I've seen of the internals), was by all accounts the most sophisticated ever designed with almost 30 layers. I've worked for companies involved in semiconductor manufacture, and I can tell you that such a project can be a VERY expensive undertaking. Design, layout, test, validate, etc... Wash, rinse and repeat.

And for such items, fabrication costs only become relatively inexpensive with volume... but with Red perhaps only needing 10's thousands of parts (not 100's of millions, like Intel), the per-unit cost for such an item isn't likely to be insiginificant.

That's just one example. There's R&D costs for lenses that Red sells for $5K that other manufacturers sell for 4-5X. R&D costs for Scarlet, the Mysterium chips, the Monstro/Red Dragon sensors. Mounts. Different Brain flavors. Accessories. Anamorphic lenses. The projector(?). Red Ray. EVF's The modules.

Then there's the software to drive this all. These are sophisticated real-time embedded systems. And the complexity went WAY up with a modular system like EPIC where the on-camera OS has to account for a myriad of different configurations. Software development for Redcine-X. Firmware for Rocket. The RED SDK. Redcode. The Red RGB/RedRay codec. All on at least two platforms.

They bought a studio. They have/are opening international offices.

Support, writing, education.

In short, while they might be making a profit (and I hope they are), you have no way of knowing if it's raining money over there. And given the extremely aggressive product/service development schedule goin on there (and remember, we see only the tip of the iceberg on occasion), there's a good chance it isn't.

-Steve
 
Steven, conceptually you're right. Problem with your thinking is that everything you said applies to the Epix-X. The M is all gravy (almost). And using your semiconductor model, margins are 30-40%+. All the hard work for the M's is priced into the X's. The only difference is the machined body and those precious red screws.

One of the smartest finesses Red has undertaken is the free titanium ring. All of us who have had deposits sitting around for two years asked for a little juice to help alieve the pain. By giving us the upgrade, A) Red made a great public relations coup and B) (and more importantly for them) they gave themselves the right to stop making and stocking parts that would become obsolete shortly, the excess inventory hurting their bottom line.

Smart guys these Red managers. Remember that and all you Redusers out there stop sobbing for poor poor Jannard and crew.
 
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