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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

What if?

G

gediminas alexandras

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I heard rumors that Canon was going to be releasing a 24p 1080 dslr to replace the current canon t1i that may have uncompressed RAW output capabilities through hdmi for $1500 in a month or so. If that is the case how many people on here would consider jumping ship from the scarlet camp? Also, what if the next 5dii model has the same capability, allows for a variable frame rate in recording (say up to 72fps) Would the folks on here find Scarlet's current pricing points to suddenly make no sense?
just curious

I suppose my thoughts are that the prices are coming down for this kind of tech. It's exciting to see what is in store.

I know the limitations of the 5dmii are in the jello artifacts on fast camera moves. I also understand that an anti-moire filter can eliminate this problem. Am I flawed in my thinking? I'm waiting to decide which camera is right for me.
In the meantime:
:cheers2:

drinking it up while patiently waiting for the news
 
Well, Scarlet has multiple times the resolution, higher frame rates, will probably record at a higher bitrate, has modules with professional sound and video inputs and outputs, the ability to switch mounts on the fly, a better form factor for handholding, and so on, so there's still going to be a huge gap between them, even if this camera is released.

Also, how can you have RAW through HDMI? That's not possible, as HDMI can only carry an RGB signal. Also, it couldn't have uncompressed RAW, because it would be very difficult to find any media - you would have to sustain around 869 Mb/s if it were 12 bit uncompressed, and 379 Mb/s if it were 8 bit...
 
Jello has nothing to do with moire. Jello is just not reading the sensor any-where-near fast enough.

There are severe aliasing issues with the 5D2. Because we see what looks like line-skipping on the readout of the sensor in video mode, you'd need an extremely strong filter to eliminate that aliasing and you'd get a really blurry image on the output. If it is the case with the line skipping (which is still the best explanation for what we see) it effectively turns a 10fps sensor into a 30fps sensor, which would mean they've got an awful long way to go to get to a real, full sensor, low skew 72fps....

Rumours are fun, but RED / Scarlet / Epic don't pull these shortcut video tricks. You don't get nasty ugly aliasing. Take a look at how RED One perfoms: http://www.cinematography.net/natress-red-res.html - take it from me, that's an exemplary zone plate!

Graeme
 
Well, the Canon 5d's have been flying off the shelves. There are some using it to film movies. The next generation should be better. Wait until Nikon enters the scene with their 1080P camera... I don't think many here will jump ship from Red. But it sure would be nice to know the real specs on the Scarlet and when it's coming out.
 
Graeme Nattress said:
Jello has nothing to do with moire. Jello is just not reading the sensor any-where-near fast enough.

There are severe aliasing issues with the 5D2. Because we see what looks like line-skipping on the readout of the sensor in video mode, you'd need an extremely strong filter to eliminate that aliasing and you'd get a really blurry image on the output. If it is the case with the line skipping (which is still the best explanation for what we see) it effectively turns a 10fps sensor into a 30fps sensor, which would mean they've got an awful long way to go to get to a real, full sensor, low skew 72fps....

Rumours are fun, but RED / Scarlet / Epic don't pull these shortcut video tricks. You don't get nasty ugly aliasing. Take a look at how RED One perfoms: http://www.cinematography.net/natress-red-res.html - take it from me, that's an exemplary zone plate!

Graeme
Click to expand...

After seeing the short clip of Izzy shot on the 2/3" as well as a spectacular range of RED 1 footage, nothing else in the price range seems very interesting. I was in the market for a prosumer level HD cam before Scarlet was announced and decided to just wait. Haven't been this excited about a camera since I got my first Bolex. It is a personal toy, more than a professional tool for me, so no real hurry, maybe by Christmas?
 
Rumours are fun, but RED / Scarlet / Epic don't pull these shortcut video tricks.
Click to expand...

That would be wonderful only if Scarlet and Epic really existed. Nothing at all can be said about the quality of Scarlet's image quality until it is real. Sorry, but that is reality.
 
John Caballero said:
That would be wonderful only if Scarlet and Epic really existed. Nothing at all can be said about the quality of Scarlet's image quality until it is real. Sorry, but that is reality.
Click to expand...

It is real. They have prototypes built and have shown footage from them here on the forums, and they are headed to production when it meets all of their expectations (if not already, we don't know how far through the production pipeline the Scarlets and Epics are yet).

So how exactly are they NOT real?
 
John Caballero said:
That would be wonderful only if Scarlet and Epic really existed. Nothing at all can be said about the quality of Scarlet's image quality until it is real. Sorry, but that is reality.
Click to expand...

However, neither are the purposed products that it is being compared against in this thread. So the point is moot.

Look hands down, the current still camera manufacturers are making still cameras that are gaining motion options. Red is making motion cameras that are gaining still options.

If you want a 1080 and a tiny camera and you don't need the depth of "professional" options .... then buy the other (yet unmade and unspec'ed) camera.

If you aren't happy waiting... then don't. However the only reason any of us know these things are even coming is because RED shares info very early in the process.
 
If you aren't happy waiting... then don't. However the only reason any of us know these things are even coming is because RED shares info very early in the process.
Click to expand...

You bet I am buying something now and making my money back as soon as I get it. I will get my money back from the GH1 probably the first month I get it while evrybody else waits for the Scarlet. When the Scarlet comes out, whenever that is, I will get one and problably make my money back in a month and a half.

So how exactly are they NOT real?
Click to expand...

Oh boy. It ain't real yet. Once it is OFFICIALLY out then it will be real. How hard is that to understand? The Mark 2 is real, the GH1 is real, the D90 is real, the D300s is real, the Pentax K7 is real. The minute the Scarlet becomes a reality I will be first on line to get one. But now is not real.
 
Not that I doubt the reality of the Scarlets, just FYI...Jim said not to expect another update for another 2 months. Until then, I am making money with my Sony Z1 to pay for the 2 Scarlets in my near future.
 
Yes anyone would be stupid to not make money and just sit on their thumbs waiting for the new camera.

Think of it like this. You are a race car driver. They announce a new car with great specs that you feel you just have to have. Of coarse you will continue to race in the meantime. Yes that announced car has no bearing on winning the current races. However it is a reality because it is there in your mind and purposed budget.

No fanaticism. There are plenty of other image capturing devices out there. No one devices is right for everyone all the time. Play the field get what works for you.

That being said I have a D90 and I have shot with the 5dMkII. Good image quality when all the "conditions" are met. Conditions that limit it from most major circles currently. Not every thing is a major's contract. Figure out what makes sense for you. What makes sense for me... a Digital Motion Cinema camera.
 
It seems everyone is going around in circles!

If your a commercial video producer and you have cameras already that give a great picture already and you can make a good living from your current cameras, whether Panasonic HPX or Sony EX1 (l do and my clients are definitely happy) then its waiting for the Scarlet.

Stills cameras with motion options are just that!!!! BUT the Scarlet will be a total game changer PERIOD for picture quality and production values for current video producers who use low (EX1 HPX171) to mid range video cameras (HD full 1920-1080 4.2.2 8 or 10 bit). It will be a total revolution and a bench mark.

Graham as usual hits the nail on the head the defines the differences so well between Red/Scarlet and the rest.

The RED 1 for me is too big and not at my price point but the Scarlet will be perfect:)

I've read the articles and seen the footage off the 5D2 and GH1 and its a bit of the Kings new cloths, if you want a shallow depth of field (which does give a nice image but with huge draw backs) a jumpy picture no real audio controls and a lot of controls stuck on to your camera, with a crap editing process then there the cameras for you. But they are not video cameras or film cameras, apples are apples and oranges are oranges, why to people try to make one the other!

The world will be awash with 5D2s and GH1 with no real second hand value within 12 months! if you can make money on them fantastic, but from my stand point they don't make commercial sense, and have a very unproductive work flow.

You can only spend your money once, so lm waiting for the Scarlet that does exist, to come in to full production so l can get my hands on one :) asap

Till that moment its great to chat and wait for that magical christmas moment, but lets not pretend canon or panasonic stills cameras or video cameras will be anywhere near the Scarlet, and l currently own and shoot on the HXP171 & HXP301, had and sold an EX1 & EX3.

But this is just my opinion.
 
Thank you all for the responses. http://reduser.net/forum/member.php?u=58 Does everyone here agree that the artifacting issue with the 5dmii cannot be corrected by an anit-moire filter? How blurry would one need to make the output to eliminate the aliasing? I know I've read that various people on this forum own Gh1's and 5dMii's. Has anyone ever tested using a strong anti-moire filter on a 5dmii and looked at the image quality/how it handles fast camera moves? I'd love to see tests if they exist to get a better understanding of how much the sharpness of the image would have to suffer in order to facilitate faster camera moves. Graeme suggests line skipping. If that is the case then I can see why everyone here is interested in the scarlet vs the dslr's.
I understand that the RED one does not write to the entire sensor when overcranking, but rather a small portion of it. Does anyone here know if the S35 and FF35 will share that quality? Or will they record to the entire sensor when overcranking? It makes a big difference in my mind to not have to reset the camera if you need to get the same shot in multiple frame rates. Also, does the resolution or image quality suffer on the Red One when overcranking due to the smaller sensor record area? I'm not a DP. I'm simple a noob trying to learn. I want to make some short films with a solid visual style and am self financing, so I can't afford the best. Just want to get the best out of the $ that I do have. (budget for camera tops out at around $10k). I have a fair ammount of experience with editing and am not intimidated by the transcoding process that would be needed for working with the codecs being spit out by the dslr's. I am more concerned about the fact that the films I have in my mind would include a fair amount of fast camera moves in their visual style and since these projects (while I want them to look the best possible) don't necessarily need a 5k image, but I would like to be able to be creative with DOF. How easy would it be to achieve DOF type of effects with a 2/3". What lenses would be necessary (within my meager budget)
Thanks for reading my ramble :) I know I asked a lot of questions here.
 
The handling of fast camera moves is all down to how fast each row of the sensor is read. To change that you need faster sensors, faster supporting electronics, faster processing. There is no filter you can put on the camera to help that.

The moire/aliasing issue is where you get stair/stepping and false colors on high details, and moire on regular grid patterns like fences, brick walls, clothing weave etc. That can be helped with an extra filter, but it ideally needs to be stronger vertically than horizontally. To see how much you'd need, shoot something that shows nasty aliasing and slowly de-focus the camera. When you see no more aliasing, you now know how blurry it has to be!

The GH1 shows very similar issues to the 5D2 with regards to aliasing, but the resolution in "1080p" mode is really quite low - measuring much more like 720p, but with bad aliasing and cross-color artifacts.

Graeme
 
Wait, I have the solution, right now I'm announcing the pre-development of a new camera I designed, the Light-Raper 1250d It's going to have a 15k sensor with 25 stops of dynamic range and capture at 1000mbps RAW up to 1500fps. Actually, make that two sensors with a beam splitter for 3D. Scarlet, Epic, 5D, Phantom, Genesis, and every other camera ever made is going to be a toy in comparison. End of discussion. Right now I have only drawn the plans with a sharpie, but I swear in the next 5-30 years it will change cinema forever. But in the mean time, don't buy anything. You don't want to waste money on something inferior do you?

Light-Raper 1250d proposed specs:

15k up to 1500fps

RAW 2.0

25 stops of dynamic range

Computer-Controlled Focus Pulling

Focus Keying
Green-screen is old technology

Dynamic Full-Motion Stabilization
Dolly's and Steady-cams are only for idiots now.

3D On Demand

Wireless server capture

!NEW! Cine-assist Digital Camera Engine (CDCE)
CDCE take the guess work out of film-making. If you're composition, actors, lighting, sound, and directing all suck, the camera simply wont record the image. Making sure you only capture the highest possibly quality... every time.

more to come!

Why waste money on an inferior camera?
 
Bryce O said:
Wait, I have the solution, right now I'm announcing the pre-development of a new camera I designed, the Light-Raper 1250d It's going to have a 15k sensor with 25 stops of dynamic range and capture at 1000mbps RAW up to 1500fps. Actually, make that two sensors with a beam splitter for 3D. Scarlet, Epic, 5D, Phantom, Genesis, and every other camera ever made is going to be a toy in comparison. End of discussion. Right now I have only drawn the plans with a sharpie, but I swear in the next 5-30 years it will change cinema forever. But in the mean time, don't buy anything. Why waste money on an inferior camera?
Click to expand...

Seriously, only a 15k sensor? Isn't that a little 1990? 25 fstops? Please... I need 40-50 MINIMUM. It sounds like the only thing your light raper will be raping is my wallet sir!!


Lol.
 
Sorry, I knew I left a few zeros out somewhere...
 
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