What does "shipping" really mean?

[Stefan Viklund]

Could someone, with insight to RED's business-model, please explain something to me.
How does it work when products are "shipping"? What does it even mean?

I ordered the Redvolt XL module almost 5 monthes ago (with the notion it was "shipping" early October).
But then it was delayed, LED lights was added, and according to Jarred it was finally shipping on Dec 20.
But a week ago I hear from the B.Squad: "three more weeks", "at least"!!!
(They said the same thing when I had a backordered Top Plate, and it turned out to be 8 weeks. )

As I understand it, this is also true with many other products in RED's catalog:
Redray, Rocket X, Quickplate module... so WHY do you/they call it shipping?!!
To me thats a healthy inventory and ATLEAST a plan to honor already placed and paid orders. Is that just me?!

I'm having a hard time not being ironic or cynical or bitter or passive agressive cause of this delay, it really made my situation difficult. (I hope I'm doing ok in staying away from it)
And sure, I bought into a new product that wasn't released, my mistake, really!,
but I try to understand why RED say anything before they actually can deliver(?)

I know about the "everything in life changes..." philosofy of RED, fine!,
but that should im(humble)o be done when things are "shipping" and money has been transfered...

I have never experienced this before, with any product / company. I'm what you call a noob
This maybe part of high-end market/equipment, with delays and never ending backorders etc.
(a world new to me) and I obviously dont know jack s&@? about running a camera manufacture company, it just seem so unlogical. And a source of frustration and disappointment. To me anyway.
"Patience-training" is one thing, this is something else

I am however very pleased with the camera and grateful at what I'm able to get with it!!!
I just feel POWERLESS (pun intended) Best wishes / Stefan Isha

 

[Louis Maddalena]

Ok so yes you bought a product that was not already released and you know that, thats why the October shipping date changed. The product was not ready yet. As for what shipping means in terms of their business model it usually means the same thing for all businesses. It means that the product is completed and is now shipping out to customers. If there is a delay there will usually be a note on the website (in your case it says orders will ship in 3-5 weeks). If there is no delay shipping turn arounds are sometimes same day now I believe if the order is placed before a certain time.

I would say that if you don't have your module in 5 weeks (the upper limit of what the website says), then give your rep a call and see if there are any further delays. Sometimes with new products such as this module, they are slow to get the product out especially if there are a lot of pre-orders, or if the items are not passing QC.

 

[Stefan Viklund]

Thanks for replying. My point though is that there obviously IS a difference between what companies mean when they say a product is "shipping". Since some ARE shipping when they say they'll do. And others don't. (I do understand that a well oiled pipeline and experience etc. Vs new companies with good intentions but not the experience, is a factor here)
(Bmcc comes to mind)

Business model.
I mean, if RED looked at the number of pre orders they have, lets say 500 orders, but they only have 200 units ready for shipping, then they would, as a rule, say that it's a "slow shipping", or something. "Sorry, but we can only fulfil the first 200 orders and it will take the factory X amount of time before we can ship the last 300 pre orders, and after that we'll meet with the "new orders".
OR they would NOT say they're shipping a new product unless they have atleast 500 units on the shelfes, ready for deployment, which covers ALL the pre-orders.

To me, when a product is "shipping", then QC should be a thing of the past. Is that wrong?
But this is where and why I'm asking. I don't understand why all these delays occure and I'm asking so I can understand the aspects of production better. I may be wierd, but I find it much easier to accept or handle something that I understand or feel I have some insight to.

For instance, do you look at the numbers of pre-orders and meet that number, 500+, before announcing "shipment"? Or is there some fear that: "maybe 150 customers will cancel their orders and we'll be stuck with 150 unsold units, so we only produce 350 units, for starter"? But then no one canceled, so now they only have 350 units but 500+ waiting customers...

I know many say that RED is unique in how they comunicate with their customers. And this is true, I'm sure! But in my experience there's also an annoying silence when I try to get some delivery insight from the Bomb Squad reps. Perhaps it' bad business to truthfully admit that: "our factory burned down" or "we've had problems with incompetence" or "a ship sank AGAIN in the pacific, which carried our parts" or "our material is flawed" etc or anything that could be percieved as unflattering, to a manufacturer. I dont know, thats why I'm asking.
Perhaps I just need to take a business class

On the eu.red.com site the maximum time I've seen is 2-3 weeks, never 3-5 weeks. But it's broken and totally unreliable as this is the third order that has passed that estimated time by weeks.

And finally, concerning delays, if this was an isolated incident it would be no thing. But when it occurs time and time again, maybe something needs to change? Or maybe it can't be changed, for whatever reason? I'm curious to know, hence; I'm asking.

In Sweden we have a saying (concerning mistakes): One time is no time, two times is one time to many. (Swinglish translation

 

[Brian Merlen]

My best advice is try to find work around solutions for when products get pushed. Red isn't the only company that misses targets, far from it when it comes to high end cine work. In no particular order, lots of people are waiting on digital bolex, black magic cine cams, leica cine glass, new cooke glass, new Schneider glass, etc you name it. It seems like almost EVERYTHING I ever want is delayed or a limited yield and wait line, by all the brands if anything lol, but I digress....


Its up to me as a camera tech to find solutions for on set today, not promises for tomorrow. There are a million powering options, many of them quite good. Whether you want P taps, hot swaps, long durations, flight safe, I can name lots of options. Different kinds of mounts, etc. I feel for you and hope you get your product soon, but the show must go on as the saying goes and I am sure anyone on RU would be happy to provide alternative options they recommend.


Also as far as Rocket X goes, it is shipping, just not to people without Dragons. Its prioritized to current Dragon owners simply cuz it makes the most sense, and although future Dragon owners may want it now for the extra processing power on our MX files, its not fair to the current Dragon guys who need it and don't have alternatives, and I can get that, and fully see why Red is shipping it in this fashion. So sometimes there choices on product distribution make complete sense when we are talking about new products and why this production needs it over that one.

Anyway feel free to consult us for any alternatives if that is helpful, and hopefully before you know it things will be allocated to you

 

[Stefan Viklund]

My best advice is try to find work around solutions for when products get pushed. Red isn't the only company that misses targets, far from it when it comes to high end cine work. In no particular order, lots of people are waiting on digital bolex, black magic cine cams, leica cine glass, new cooke glass, new Schneider glass, etc you name it. It seems like almost EVERYTHING I ever want is delayed or a limited yield and wait line, by all the brands if anything lol, but I digress....

Thanks Brian, for responding and giving advise! Appreciated!I understand that delays are not a RED isolated problem in this industry. But I'm still interested in if there's a way to make the communication better between customer and manufacturer.(?) Not just accept it and keep it in the shadows. I think it's hard to evolve in the shadows. Not "rest on the laurels" so to speak. How can it improve? I know RED, for instance, was proud of the "ship the same day - when in stock" announcement. Great! an improvement! Keep going!
And the title of this thread "shipping" is just so obvious, as it's in fact NOT shipping, it's "maybe shipping in the future", so why not start there...

Its up to me as a camera tech to find solutions for on set today, not promises for tomorrow. There are a million powering options, many of them quite good. Whether you want P taps, hot swaps, long durations, flight safe, I can name lots of options. Different kinds of mounts, etc. I feel for you and hope you get your product soon, but the show must go on as the saying goes and I am sure anyone on RU would be happy to provide alternative options they recommend.

Thanks! I'm open for advise on good solutions, and looking into some type of v-mount system (Belt-Clip maybe).
My situation thou, was as follows. I was naive enough to think that the XL module actually WOULD ship in the beginning of october. So I waited, and a couple of weeks later, it was pushed to November. I was by then thinking of switching system but I had already taken delivery of the batteries and charger, and I'm neither wealthy nor a rental facility, so a new system would force me to come up with another chunk of money. So I waited, days n weeks, and wrote Bomb Squad every three weeks or so, but they had no intel, what so ever. Then, like two months later, Jarred wrote on RU and said they've added LED's, the cause of the delay. Great! But...
They MUST have known about this MUCH earlier, so WHY not tell us and spare, at least me, the agonizing "maybe today FedEx will show up"?! I would have bought a v-mount solution in a heartbeat if I knew it would be a five month delay. This is one aspect where I think improvements could be made in the customer relationship. If not, why?
I understand most of RED's customers have deeper pockets than me and can buy what they need when they need it, and maybe this camera system is not that appropriate for someone who can't. Not without some planning anyway.
But what I'm getting, in terms of footage, and the amount of money I'd have to pay/produce to learn the camera PLUS the actual production time, would cost me more if I rented. In Sweden anyway.

Also as far as Rocket X goes, it is shipping, just not to people without Dragons. Its prioritized to current Dragon owners simply cuz it makes the most sense, and although future Dragon owners may want it now for the extra processing power on our MX files, its not fair to the current Dragon guys who need it and don't have alternatives, and I can get that, and fully see why Red is shipping it in this fashion. So sometimes there choices on product distribution make complete sense when we are talking about new products and why this production needs it over that one.

Anyway feel free to consult us for any alternatives if that is helpful, and hopefully before you know it things will be allocated to you

I totally respect the fact that Dragon owners get priority on the RRX, and maybe I was wrong in adding that particular product as an example! Thank you!!
Alternatives. (Also for longer runtimes)
There's Anton Bauer and V-mount. Anything else that I've missed? And there's cheep China batteries to pretty expensive Bebop Rouge etc. AB is a better form factor, but more expensive. Have I got it right?! Best wishes // Stefan Isha

 

[Brian Merlen]

Personally I like Paglink since I can hot swap more on if I am running low but can't cut the take. They are also plane safe. This coupled with a vmount battery belt is dirt cheap since you can hook up to 16 batteries on a single charger with the large paglink charger. You pay a bit more for the batteries, but your saving on chargers, and your saving on rentals cuz they are plane safe/flight safe (if travel is a factor).

I think a lot of battery choice comes down to what mount do you use, AB or V, do you need P tap or not, does it need to be travel safe for planes, and how long does it need to last (the larger ones became too big too be plane safe)? also does it use some proprietary connector, or can it function on multiple camera systems and therefore provide you more utility in this fashion (not to knock non standardized systems, but its true that something standard can last multiple camera systems or be used on more models you may already have)

A lot of that will determine what you go for. I happen to like the fact I can hot swap and have only one charger to bring along with my batteries anywhere any time, even on a plane, but I miss out on long duration and P taps so there is a little take with this as well as much as I like my system. So I think a good way to determine what you need is to have a long think about historically have you needed this feature or that feature out of your power system and what your long term needs are. (perhaps light weird proprietary batteries matter more because you do a lot of steadicam or heli work, there can be reasons to go for them, despite the longevity factor)

Also you can sell your unused parts if needed at probably close to full value if that becomes an issue. Nice thing about cameras of this quality is the stuff really doesn't drop in value like in the prosumer market, and on RU theres always people looking to sell or trade this part for that. That is actually another place you can save a buck, is in finding trusted RU members to buy as much possible used as you can, or other Red shooters in your area perhaps that you can trust, bring on jobs, rent from, etc. The site can be quite helpful with reviews of products as well, so in general I think these are some great ways to find out about products and potentially save some cash by buying a good solution the first time around from other peoples knowledge of various options

regardless i hope you get your parts sooner then later, and I am sure others must feel the same way as you. It is very disappointing when something that seems so close and around the corner doesn't come to fruition. back when I got interested in Red I was a student and wanted a 3,000 dollar fixed lens camera lol! that was about 4 years and 40,000 dollars ago by my count lmfao, but I am happy and I enjoy my much superior Epic...now if i could only afford decent glass lmfao! (part of why I wanted fixed camera to begin with, avoid the glass fetish I now have, seriously all i do is look at lens tests and read about em)

 

[Brent Carter]

I think I have posted on this in a few places so will do a few condensed points:

* While we certainly have made improvements on availability statuses on RED.com, we can always be better. We have updated our refresh rate of availability statuses to run a lot more frequently than even a month ago.

* Remember, even with the best forecasting efforts, sometimes we get a lot more orders than we expect. So, we make an initial batch for when we first start shipping, but at times, we get more orders than that batch. So, have to play cacth up. Having to be a lean company, we have to always err on the side of conservative. What would be deadly for us is building way too much - not having enough orders - and inventory (ie, money) just sitting on our shelves collecting dust.