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What Cable to Use (35' length, HDMI Projector, AJA Kona 3G Card)

Will Keir

Will Keir

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Hi guys. I'm wonder what cable to use for my Kona 3G card to output to my 1080p Epson 8350 Projector. I have to go 35'.

The Kona 3G has HDMI, 2x SDI Outs, 2X SDI Ins and DVI.
My projector has HDMI input.
My hope is to get 10 bit color and use the projector as a reference monitor.

HDMI was my first thought but I hear the cable has trouble over distance and there are many specs for this type of cable, I believe 1.4a being the newest and able to handle a 3g signal. Obviously, I don't know that much about the cabling yet.

I was thinking a 3G SDI cable would be nice, just get SDI to HDMI adapter for the plug into the projector. SDI would be more useful for onset monitoring with a Flanders on set shooting with our Epic.

Thanks in advance for any advice.
 
HD-SDI, 3G SDI, SDI? What's the difference?

Is there SDI that can handle 1080p but not 4k? Are they all the same?
 
I know, I had to no either. Maybe someone out there can help?
 
From what I've found, standard HDMI seems to be ok up to 50', but you could do a higher quality BNC and just make sure the convertor isn't loosing any of your 10bits in the process. Definitely no 4K over coax BNC, but 1080p for sure. And yes, I'd do a 1.4a if you can find one. Will be good future proofing for 4K imaging later.
 
At this point It's the SDI coax cable that cannot carry the signal. I'm betting in the next year (or maybe at NAB) we'll see some 4K BNC capable cables. Maybe a fiber solution or something. I think the connectors could be used, but the inner workings would have to change.
 
4K over a single coaxial cable is pretty demanding. Coaxial cabling tops out at about 4GHz, most of the "good" cables from Belden, Liberty, etc.. are rated no higher than 3GHz. And that's necessary for SDI 3G, which is essentially double bandwidth of HD-SDI, brining us the capability of dual-link into one cable.

Anyway, at 35' HDMI is just about at it's limits. You can push it up to 45~50ft, but cables tend to burn out at those lengths (my experience) and they get rather expensive for good ones. Since you have an HDMI out on the Kona 3G card and the projector is HDMI input, I would stick with HDMI signaling. You can get a decent HDMI balun setup for less than $200 and then run regular CAT-6 UTP ethernet cabling between. With HDBASE-T type baluns, you can run up to 1000 feet for 720p. Haha.

The HDBASE-T balun set from monoprice.com is actually really good and under $200, probably the best bargain I've found for the HDBASE-T type. Only down side is that it requires an AC adapter at each end of the run. Most HDBASE-T baluns run Power Over Ethernet to eliminate the AC adapter on the display end.

If you want to go cheaper still, there are proprietary signal conversion baluns for a bit less.

I wouldn't worry about HDMI 1.4a, 4K and all that. It's too new. Cheaper to buy a solid solution now and then just upgrade your baluns later, and the $5 worth of cable between them, if needed.
 
Thanks Jeff.
 
Jeff Kilgroe said:
I wouldn't worry about HDMI 1.4a, 4K and all that. It's too new. Cheaper to buy a solid solution now and then just upgrade your baluns later, and the $5 worth of cable between them, if needed.
Click to expand...

Jeff, doesn't sound like the "RED" theory on technology to me... :-) .. oh wait...

You'd want a 1.4 if you want your REDRAY and REDLASER Projector to work together in the next year. I guess without a 4K display is doesn't really matter. Just saying. Plus the majority of HDMI's on the market are already 1.4. It's just good to double check.
 
Most of the newer HDMI extension products do support 1.4, but they may not support resolutions over 1080p. ...just one of those things.

Another way to go is to get a long-run HDMI cable that uses a signal booster. I recommend these for anything over 20 feet, but they start to climb up to $150~$250 and up as you get up there and no guarantees that they will always work. HDMI signal strength is not always of consistent output power from every device. You would think there are standards, oh wait, there are... It really boggles the mind how few manufacturers actually adhere to the standards and keep their equipment within the specs. There are also wireless HDMI solutions and I think I've tried just about all of them. To put it bluntly, they all suck. Their biggest issue is compatibility. Once again, it just boggles the mind.
 
Jeff,

Could you recommend a few companies that make excellent HDMI cables?

Jeff Kilgroe said:
Most of the newer HDMI extension products do support 1.4, but they may not support resolutions over 1080p. ...just one of those things.

Another way to go is to get a long-run HDMI cable that uses a signal booster. I recommend these for anything over 20 feet, but they start to climb up to $150~$250 and up as you get up there and no guarantees that they will always work. HDMI signal strength is not always of consistent output power from every device. You would think there are standards, oh wait, there are... It really boggles the mind how few manufacturers actually adhere to the standards and keep their equipment within the specs. There are also wireless HDMI solutions and I think I've tried just about all of them. To put it bluntly, they all suck. Their biggest issue is compatibility. Once again, it just boggles the mind.
Click to expand...
 
The monoprice cables are both cheap and excellent. For long runs however, which is anything over 25 feet in HDMI land, there are only a few I trust. I have yet to have any of the Accell cables fail me, but beware of using the repeater cables -- the HDMI 1.3 rated ones don't play well with HDMI 1.4 signals, 12bits @ 1080p, frame-packed fullHD 3D bandwidth and whatnot. I like the Accell cables with the integrated booster and you have the option to leave them as passive or to attach a power adapter. Most of the time, you can get away with passive for runs shorter than 40 feet. You can get over 100 feet by adding power. Sewelldirect.com often has these cables, but it looks like they're out of stock right now. PM me, I can check distributors to see what's up. Looks like there may be a lull in production.

Gefen makes some good ones for their boosted cables, but it's cheaper to buy baluns than their long-run cables. Atlonas are decent for boosted cables too.

I refuse to buy anything from Ethereal and Monster. Ethereal's HDMI cables have failed me more times than I care to think about. And they are supposed to be good and are well-regarded in the industry. IMO, they're garbage. I have a dead one stuck in a conduit right now, keeping me from pulling anything through. Not happy about it, but at least I'm not in a hurry to fix since it's in my own home. lol.. I'll have to climb up to the attic and cut the conduit and try a few other things before I resort to just cutting drywall. I put that cable in 7 years ago when I built the place, thinking it wouldn't be an issue. It's a 15 meter ~40 foot cable. dead after about 6.5 years of occasional use. Same story in every pro AV installation I've done with long-run Ethereal cables. I'd say the failure rate on cables over 20 feet long is probably close to 80%. No I'm not joking and I hate taking that call from some sports bar owner or digital signage customer bitching that they have no picture on on of their displays. Monster only makes shit. They're marketed as being super awesome and all that, have been for the past 25+ some years, but they're just average generic cables (all their cables are generic and average) and have premium retail pricing on them. Generally speaking, if any of the big-box retailers have them, you don't want them.

Given that you're only running 35 feet, you can probalby get away with using a good quality HDMI cable and buying a spare, just in case. ;)

Seriously, this is a nice cable. As nice as it gets for a cable with all the features, no boosters or repeaters: http://www.monoprice.com/products/p...=10240&cs_id=1025503&p_id=9431&seq=1&format=2

Or these:

http://sewelldirect.com/Sewell-Premium-HDMI-Cable-40-ft.asp

The only catch is some devices may not put out enough power to drive a display or projector at the other end at this distance. You may have to use a signal booster. Powered signal boosters can be a problem, but are sometimes necessary, and sometimes they can literally fry your cable. It's usually the connectors that fail on HDMI cables, but they're near impossible to repair/replace in the field and it's always better just to pull a replacement. Also be aware that most cables are only capable of carrying the full bandwidth of HDMI 1.4a to about 25 to 35 feet maximum! Some of the best cable out there is the Belden Series 1 and that's what I would say the vast majority of cable integrators are using to make their HDMI cables with. It's only rated to to take HDMI 1.4a to 25 feet. In actuality, it go go a good bit farther than that, but no guarantees.

The reason I recommended baluns above, even though they're more expensive, is I've had far better luck going that route. When I do any installs for clients, I don't install HDMI cables longer than 25~30 feet. I've had to go back and replace too many of them. It's far easier to pull 3 or 4 CAT-6 and know that I'll have enough wire to run whatever I want to that display location for many years to come, I just have to swap out the signal baluns on each end. In fact, the near future is doing away with typical baluns and the janky distribution and switching we have now. Everything is about to shift to IP distribution and switching anyway. These days, a typical TV drop in a new custom home or sports bar or whatever, if done right, has a 3GHz RG6/Q coaxial cable and 3 or 4 CAT-6e 550Mhz rated UTP cables. You can run uncompressed HDMI 1.4a 1080p frame packed 3D deep color and 4K at 24fps over a single CAT-6 with HDBASE-T balun up to about 220 feet.

For HDBASE-T, I like Gefen, Key Digital and a few others, but they get expensive. I've got a couple of the new < $200 Monoprice ones working away right now and they're awesome for the money if you don't need PoE. They haven't been available that long, but all well so far <knock wood>. I have had good luck with the HDMI extenders from Monoprice in the past, they use dual CAT-5 or better UTP cables. And I think are less than $75 now.
 
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1.4 offers greater bandwidth on the top end, I wouldn't worry too much about impedance on an adapter like this as they're just a straight-through from one plug size to another. $9.95 is actually on the expensive side. ;) All the pins are the same, this "converter" knows nothing about what passes through it. It's only labeled as 1.3 because that's what it was officially tested and certified for. HDMI 1.3 and 1.4 still use the base signal specs, so straight-through wiring shouldn't be an issue for anything like this.

If you need a mini plug on one end, you can always have RAM Electronics or Blue Jeans Cables make you a mini-to-standard HDMI cable in the length you need. But you may end up using an adapter later on to go the other way if you change out Kona cards, etc..
 
Jeff,

If you have a paypal account, I'd like to toss an donation your way for all the excellent support
 
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