What brand will be first to deliver on this camera spec?

[AndreeMarkefors]

I know exactly what I want my camera to be. Had it existed, it would have been VERY popular. The technology is already there, but no one has put it all together in a single package yet.

The question now is: who will be first? This is the spec brief:

• 20MP-ish stills size
• Stills in raw
• Full format sensor size for stills
  
  
• 4k+ resolution for video
• S35 (or bigger, up to FF) sensor area for video
• 10bit+, 422+ intra frame compressed video codec (ProRes or equivalent)
• 13+ stops of DR (I'd probably take 12 good, solid stops any day)
• Log picture profile for video
  
  
• Internal ND (Sony's solution in FS5 seems sweet).
• Generic, modern media like CFast 2
• Basic Internal audio
• internal power
• EF fixed mount or modular
• basic i/o for video and audio
• LUT support
  
  
• Auto Focus
• ergonomic camera body. I would prefer 1Dc DSLR style body over let's say Sony FS7. Canon Cinema range kind of splits the difference. RED style body box isn't close, currently
• Auto standby and instant on

So, many of the big brands tick a lot of the boxes here, albeit in different places. RED is strong in the tech specs but lacks quite a bit in usability for my kind of shooting: doc, shoot as it unfolds kind of thing—carry the camera like a DSLR and shoot within seconds after a longer pause.

My Canon 1Dc has the usability and build quality. Nice power and internal media. Would need 10bit and a little boost in DR (not as critical for me actually) and a new DPAF sensor.

I've got the deposit down on the new Scarlet-W, but I wonder if I ever get to hold it in my hands. Even if Canon is pretty conservative with 1Dx II: 4k same as 1Dc, but with DPAF and an improved sensor with closer to C300 mkII performance, well... that is probably a better fit. They can increase the total pixels and still get S35 4k. The 1Dc shoots 4k at 1.28x currently.


EDIT: I'd replace the stills functionality with RED's 6k Dragon frames, but I'd then like to start the camera shooting into a rolling buffer and be able to tag "photo moments" that would be saved to media with a customizable 'handle' amount. So, a press of the shutter would extract let's say +/- 1 second around that moment (50 frames for me).

 

[Anton Shavlik]

Weapon 8k gets you full frame, but even 6k gets you damn close to 20MP and full frame.

Weapon does not get you: generic media, instant on, ergonomics. Though it has internal ND (motion mount) and autofocus those could use improvement if they want to beat out other brands.

I don't expect RED is going to ever have options for generic media or be able to boot instantly.

Isn't what you're talking about in your edit exactly what stills mode does on Red, that is if you configure it to do so?

 

[Christoffer Glans]

I know exactly what I want my camera to be. Had it existed, it would have been VERY popular. The technology is already there, but no one has put it all together in a single package yet.

The question now is: who will be first? This is the spec brief:

• 20MP-ish stills size
• Stills in raw
• Full format sensor size for stills
  
  
• 4k+ resolution for video
• S35 (or bigger, up to FF) sensor area for video
• 10bit+, 422+ intra frame compressed video codec (ProRes or equivalent)
• 13+ stops of DR (I'd probably take 12 good, solid stops any day)
• Log picture profile for video
  
  
• Internal ND (Sony's solution in FS5 seems sweet).
• Generic, modern media like CFast 2
• Basic Internal audio
• internal power
• EF fixed mount or modular
• basic i/o for video and audio
• LUT support
  
  
• Auto Focus
• ergonomic camera body. I would prefer 1Dc DSLR style body over let's say Sony FS7. Canon Cinema range kind of splits the difference. RED style body box isn't close, currently
• Auto standby and instant on

Isn't most of those specs already in the Weapon 6K? I mean

1. 19 MP
2. Yes
3. Yes with 8K Vista Vision (FF) and around 1.2 or 1.3 crop for regular 6K Dragon (like the 1Ds).
4. Yes, definetely.
5. Yes, all the way up to FF (Vista Vision)
6. I get your point but you get 16bit 444 video after processing the R3D files. Why do you want extremely inferior image quality? If for the versatility of just shooting and being done with it, well, in Weapon you have 4K ProRes so isn't that enough?
7. Yes, 16.5+ Dynamic range
8. R3D is RAW and RAW is RAW, you get whatever you want out of it. If shooting ProRes you can shoot RedLogFilm or Rec2020 if you like.
9. Haven't tried it, but I think the motion mount has it.
10. "Generic media" is most of the time unreliable. Different brands have different quality. The Mini-Mags aren't as expensive as people keeps complaining about, not when comparing to professional grade CFast2.0 cards. And yes you want reliable cards, ESPECIALLY for documentary.
11. Yes, both inputs and scratch mics are on the Weapon.
12. What? Internal power? For how long? No technology that have all these features can have a long lasting internal power... NONE. The battery technology for that isn't even developed yet, so that technology isn't around.
13. Yes.
14. Yes
15. Yes, up to 33x33x33 on the CF Weapon. 17x17x17 on the MG.
16. Yes (not as fast as still cameras but if you need that well... use a still camera).
17. You say this technology is possible today? No, a camera body of that size is not possible with the amount of processing and cooling that such a camera need. Red is the smallest camera ever to be able to do what you ask.
18. You have sleep mode and Weapon has faster startup.


Actually... everything you say is in the Weapon camera system so I'm really not sure why you even bother looking at other brands. No one is as close to your list than the Weapon CF 6K or 8K.

 

[Marc Wielage]

Jesus, be thankful for what you got. You've got more than what everybody had 7 years ago. From where I sit, the glass is half full.

 

[AndreeMarkefors]

Hej Christoffer

You're right that many of the higher end technical specs are already included in Weapon. If I was image centric, maybe the usability trade-offs would matter less. But as nice as image nerdery can be for personal fulfillment, I'm aiming for 'good enough'—the rest is icing on the cake.

Since I don't do video production full time, my owner/op camera price class is closer to $10-12k than $30-40k. I'd rent if necessary.

Like you say: Weapon looks great way down the list. The pure specs are there. But then the rubber hits the road—power, media, form factor. And if you look at my specs you can see that several are 'modest'. It's easy to think that over speccing adds additional value. It doesn't for me—if I have to strike some usability item off the list.

6. I get your point but you get 16bit 444 video after processing the R3D files. Why do you want extremely inferior image quality? If for the versatility of just shooting and being done with it, well, in Weapon you have 4K ProRes so isn't that enough?

9. Haven't tried it, but I think the motion mount has it.
10. "Generic media" is most of the time unreliable. Different brands have different quality. The Mini-Mags aren't as expensive as people keeps complaining about, not when comparing to professional grade CFast2.0 cards. And yes you want reliable cards, ESPECIALLY for documentary.
12. What? Internal power? For how long? No technology that have all these features can have a long lasting internal power... NONE. The battery technology for that isn't even developed yet, so that technology isn't around.

16. Yes (not as fast as still cameras but if you need that well... use a still camera).
17. You say this technology is possible today? No, a camera body of that size is not possible with the amount of processing and cooling that such a camera need. Red is the smallest camera ever to be able to do what you ask.
18. You have sleep mode and Weapon has faster startup.

Actually... everything you say is in the Weapon camera system so I'm really not sure why you even bother looking at other brands. No one is as close to your list than the Weapon CF 6K or 8K.

6. The low video spec is to allow for the body with internal power and good ergonomics. I'm thinking Canon could get to ProRes level within the 1D-series housing.
9. If it was good every reduser would have it. That's not my impression. Light loss? Other things?
10. Here we simply don't agree. I know all the reasons listed by manufacturers of proprietary media, and I basically don't buy into any of it. RED has opened up support for 3rd party accessories. Is the side module included there?
12. I can shoot for about 45min on a battery on my 1Dc. They are small and cheap. Keep two on the charger and one in the camera.
16. I'm talking about when shooting video, similar to C300 mkII. I need as fast as a still camera, and that IS what I WANT to use, but the video isn't there yet.
17. 2016 will push things further. Probably not all the way. I'm almost there already.
18. Yes, I've heard Weapon is much better. Not up to date here. I still think it's more than 30s though?

 

[AndreeMarkefors]

Isn't what you're talking about in your edit exactly what stills mode does on Red, that is if you configure it to do so?

That sounds very interesting. I've only heard that the stills side has been improved, but I'm not sure to what extent. Have to look into this.

 

[AndreeMarkefors]

Jesus, be thankful for what you got. You've got more than what everybody had 7 years ago. From where I sit, the glass is half full.

Don't know what to say to this. It's your view of the glass then Marc. Not a single word in my original post was bitter.

 

[Joel Arvidsson]

I had loved to se an internal nd and an autofocus to kill for. This would be my biggest wishes for next generation from red.

For mx and dragon i wish we could record the xyz sensor data to meta. Would love to atleast be able to se how much the curent tilt is in an image when you are in post.

Also im still wishing we could get a way to mark good takes. Its a thing that atleast. Would save me alot of times in editing.

 

[Terry VerHaar]

You could always start your own camera company. Look, you already have your product spec'd!!

 

[Jon Carr]

I'll always put my money on a RED over a sony any day. But I highly doubt that RED would do anything mechanical like internal ND's. Unless they decide on their next OLPF to be a mixture of the motion mount and current OLPF. But next generation of sensors maybe.

 

[Christoffer Glans]

Hej Christoffer

You're right that many of the higher end technical specs are already included in Weapon. If I was image centric, maybe the usability trade-offs would matter less. But as nice as image nerdery can be for personal fulfillment, I'm aiming for 'good enough'—the rest is icing on the cake.

Since I don't do video production full time, my owner/op camera price class is closer to $10-12k than $30-40k. I'd rent if necessary.

Like you say: Weapon looks great way down the list. The pure specs are there. But then the rubber hits the road—power, media, form factor. And if you look at my specs you can see that several are 'modest'. It's easy to think that over speccing adds additional value. It doesn't for me—if I have to strike some usability item off the list.



6. The low video spec is to allow for the body with internal power and good ergonomics. I'm thinking Canon could get to ProRes level within the 1D-series housing.
9. If it was good every reduser would have it. That's not my impression. Light loss? Other things?
10. Here we simply don't agree. I know all the reasons listed by manufacturers of proprietary media, and I basically don't buy into any of it. RED has opened up support for 3rd party accessories. Is the side module included there?
12. I can shoot for about 45min on a battery on my 1Dc. They are small and cheap. Keep two on the charger and one in the camera.
16. I'm talking about when shooting video, similar to C300 mkII. I need as fast as a still camera, and that IS what I WANT to use, but the video isn't there yet.
17. 2016 will push things further. Probably not all the way. I'm almost there already.
18. Yes, I've heard Weapon is much better. Not up to date here. I still think it's more than 30s though?

You are saying the technology is available but no one makes the camera. The thing is that Red does make what you are asking for, but you are asking for the Weapon 8K but for a fraction of the price, which is nuts. Do you understand how expensive it is to develop and manufacture these kinds of cameras?
The 8K Weapon gives you FF still photography and extreme video capabilities, you just have to pay the price really, NO ONE else is going to give you the same for the price Red is offering, sorry, but that's just the truth.

As for the answers....
6. Canon cannot get that level of processing inside the 1D-series housing, if they did, they would have done it. Why haven't they? Because they have their other linup of cameras which they focus on for video and there isn't processing capabilities around to take what's in the Alexa mini, increase the specs and put them in a smaller body. Weapon 8K is as close as you get, come back ten years from now.

9. Because it has light loss and can't be used for high speed. It's mainly meant for getting a shutter quality more close to film cameras.

10. The red-mini mags are native for Red cameras, that's why they are more reliable. Take it or leave it, but the truth is always that third party will never be as reliable as native equipment. Rigorous testing in R&D makes sure of that. Yes, it would be nice to be able to just buy media anywhere, but when you have enough cards, why would you? I really don't get the problem with media that everybody has. The speed of the CFast cards are theoretically faster, but speeds rarely max out on any storage system. It's like the marketing of external drives with USB3.0 saying the speed is 500MB/s, which is bullshit since drives max out at continuous 80-90 MB/s . Just becuase CFast are theoretically faster doesn't mean they will improve anything on a Dragon or Alexa camera. The speed isn't whats making those cameras tick and I would recommend going native, you would definetely want reliability over anything else.

12. Yes, the 1Dc, a ridiculously inferior camera when it comes to the processing needs you want. I don't think you really grasp how power and processing works for computers and cameras. What you are asking for is impossible until a new battery technology comes along. Stop comparing the 1Dc to the Weapon, it's not even in the same ballpark when it comes to processing. The 1Dc can't do 10% of what a Weapon 8K can do with motion pictures. A good example of why this isn't possible is when you use Magic Lantern on the canon cameras to get RAW footage. The battery drains almost ïmmediately and the camera almost burn up inside (and you get dropped frames because of the maxed out processing). Other than that, just get a module for Weapon with XL batteries, that's "inside" since the camera brain doesn't have room for a battery. The camera size is as small as it can get with modern technology.

16. Well, that might be a reallity with future upgrades the Weapon line... if you want the image quality you want AND autofocus, well, Red is the only one making small cameras with that level of processing capabilities so maybe you should ask them for it. I'm sure they will be the only company even listening to that request really. The C300 is not even close to what you get with a Red Weapon. My old DVX100 has auto-focus as well, is that a better camera than Red?

17. I'm not sure what you mean? Red is still light years ahead of the competition and as close as you can get to what you want. I doubt any other company will show a cheap revolutionary camera at NAB next year that would over-shadow Red.

18, Weapon is better, maybe you should look at red.com to see the specs? Also read about the 8K here on reduser. The thing is that you have to pay the price on the price tag. If you want what you want, you have to wait a long long time to get that. Like ten years from now when you can buy an 8K Weapon for a fraction of the current price. At this moment... no one else is even close to what you want, except Red. Either deal with the price or change your perception of what's possible at this moment in time.

 

[Craig W. Bickerstaff]

Minus the stills and the auto focus... and the 4k video that's effectively an Alexa I'd have thought.

 

[Hrvoje Simic]

I know exactly what I want my camera to be. Had it existed, it would have been VERY popular. The technology is already there, but no one has put it all together in a single package yet.

The question now is: who will be first? This is the spec brief:

• 20MP-ish stills size
• Stills in raw
• Full format sensor size for stills
  
  
• 4k+ resolution for video
• S35 (or bigger, up to FF) sensor area for video
• 10bit+, 422+ intra frame compressed video codec (ProRes or equivalent)
• 13+ stops of DR (I'd probably take 12 good, solid stops any day)
• Log picture profile for video
  
  
• Internal ND (Sony's solution in FS5 seems sweet).
• Generic, modern media like CFast 2
• Basic Internal audio
• internal power
• EF fixed mount or modular
• basic i/o for video and audio
• LUT support
  
  
• Auto Focus
• ergonomic camera body. I would prefer 1Dc DSLR style body over let's say Sony FS7. Canon Cinema range kind of splits the difference. RED style body box isn't close, currently
• Auto standby and instant on

So, many of the big brands tick a lot of the boxes here, albeit in different places. RED is strong in the tech specs but lacks quite a bit in usability for my kind of shooting: doc, shoot as it unfolds kind of thing—carry the camera like a DSLR and shoot within seconds after a longer pause.

My Canon 1Dc has the usability and build quality. Nice power and internal media. Would need 10bit and a little boost in DR (not as critical for me actually) and a new DPAF sensor.

I've got the deposit down on the new Scarlet-W, but I wonder if I ever get to hold it in my hands. Even if Canon is pretty conservative with 1Dx II: 4k same as 1Dc, but with DPAF and an improved sensor with closer to C300 mkII performance, well... that is probably a better fit. They can increase the total pixels and still get S35 4k. The 1Dc shoots 4k at 1.28x currently.


EDIT: I'd replace the stills functionality with RED's 6k Dragon frames, but I'd then like to start the camera shooting into a rolling buffer and be able to tag "photo moments" that would be saved to media with a customizable 'handle' amount. So, a press of the shutter would extract let's say +/- 1 second around that moment (50 frames for me).

If Red is not an option, right now the closest match are A7R2 and Leica SL.
Leica is currently the only full frame stills camera giving 10 bit 4:2:2 video out and Atomos, Convergent Design and Video Devices recorders now support LUTs. Keep in mind that with Leica you get 4K at S35 crop. With A7R2 full frame 4K works okay and S35 4K is too jello.

I don't see a broadcast level codec in stills cameras any time soon.
Internal NDs (plural) idea is not realistic for a compact camera body. Electronic ND principle used in Sony's FS5 perhaps.

 

[Saied_M]

Since you mentioned the Canon 1Dc having the usability and build quality, I understand the replacement will be announced in around a month from now, to be called the 1Dx. (Correction, 1Dx MkII as Scott says below - thanks).

 

[scott devitte]

Since you mentioned the Canon 1Dc having the usability and build quality, I understand the replacement will be announced in around a month from now, to be called the 1Dx.

1Dx MkII. 1Dx is current hi frame rate stills camera that is a 1Dc without 4k.

 

[Jay Birch]

I think Canon, Nikon and Sony will all release cameras with a similar spec to what you mention, in 2016.... You may need an external recorder for the 10bit, but we will see.

No doubt the GH5 will have internal 10bit, but lacks the FF you want (speed booster would get it close).

 

[Rusty Rehl]

I am excited to see how the Raven is going to perform once they start shipping. Also yes the GH5 is suppose to be rad. Panasonic is killing it when it comes to producing cheap 4k cameras.