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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

What are your future lens buying plans

Should similarly built lenses, a FF35 f2.8 lens covering a 6K sensor & a S35 f1.9 lens covering a 4K sensor, have the same MTF across their image circles?

The short version is: yes.

Smaller sensors need MTF at higher spatial frequencies in order to match the image of larger sensors. Basically, in order for two formats to have the same image, the "crop factor" needs to apply to MTF. If it doesn't, then the image quality wont be the same.

The crop factor between RED ONE 4K recording area and FF35 is 1.6X (36/22mm). So in order for a S35 f/1.8 lens to have the same resolution and contrast as a FF35 f/2.8 lens, the MTF must be the same at 1.6X higher frequencies. That is, if the f/2.8 FF35 lens has MTF80 at 19 lp/mm and 14mm image height, then a S35 lens must have MTF80 at 30 lp/mm and 9mm image height.

And not just one MTF value, but the entire range of MTF values at all frequencies relative to the viewer's CoC (or Nyquist, if both sensors have the same resolution) and relative to image height.

The question is: does MTF actually tend to scale in this way in real life? The answer to that is above my level of expertise, but what I know leads me to believe that it does scale, but is not directly proportionate; that large sensors are favored.

I think the reason larger sensors tend to have superior MTF is at least threefold:

Faster f-numbers are more difficult.

My understanding is that S35 f/1.8 is more difficult than FF35 f/2.8, even though they have about the same size and open aperture. Similarly, I understand that f/4 on Medium Format is easier than f/2.8 on FF35.


Miniaturization is difficult.

The manufacturing tolerances are tighter for smaller formats. A 1mm centration error is a bigger problem on 2/3" than medium format, so the tolerances must scale with the size, and I would think that it makes smaller sizes more difficult. However, there are certainly counter points to this: f/2.8 lenses for digicams and mobile phones prove that highly miniaturized multi-element plastic lenses can be constructed within amazingly small tolerances, at low cost, and amazingly high MTF (over 400 lp/mm). I don't know how well that translates to the high quality lenses we want for 2/3", S35, and other sizes, if at all, but it's interesting none the less.

Optical viewfinders do not allow back focus distances to vary

Optical viewfinders that were necessary for film forced lens manufacturers to have a certain distance between the exit pupil (real of the lens) and the film itself. This distance is based on whatever the manufacturer chooses, not format size. So a a FF35 lens design cannot always be scaled down for S35 if it would mean the back focus shrinks too much to fit onto the mount without hitting the mirror. So then the designed must be changed for retrofocus with more rear elements, perhaps reducing the quality.

Rangefinder lenses, for example, can have rear elements just 4mm from the surface of the sensor, because there is no mirror to get in the way. That's the opposite of telecentricity, and while it can save cost, improve speed, and reduce aberrations, it increases falloff greatly: at least because of cos^4 falloff, and perhaps also due to sensor angle of response.

So if my understanding is correct, these factors combine to favor large formats such as FF35. Not that it matters for cine purposes, as there is not many cine lenses for FF35.

The golden route

Good points all around, Hans, especially about how DOF affects sharpness.

The golden route would be a S35mm DMSC camera that resolves 5K+ with the DR of the upcoming FF35 cameras.

I think FF35 will always be superior (when used with more light), but at some point S35 will be good enough that the difference will not be important in many circumstances.
 
Yes to proprietary. And yes to compatible with all the "Brains". So you can use the FF35 lenses on all models (except Fixed 8x obviously) and the only limitation is the sensor size. You can use, for example, an FF35 lens on an S35 brain and have full auto capability.

(...)
These are good news!

(...)

There is a compromise doing this when shooting "cine" compared to RED Pro Primes. It will be better than shooting DSLR lenses from other manufacturers but not like using dedicated cine lenses. Again... DSMC.

Jim
What exactly will it mean comparing with "cine" then?
 
I'll buy all RED lenses. Does my opinion count? We are building the lenses I have always wanted. I'm not buying them because they are RED. I'm buying them because they are better.

Jim

Hey Jim
What glass is used in the Red Primes? I have read the comparisons between S4's and the new RED primes and I am very excited.
David McNamara
RED#5209
 
Hey Jim
What glass is used in the Red Primes? I have read the comparisons between S4's and the new RED primes and I am very excited.
David McNamara
RED#5209

Just like the RED 18-85mm zoom, the RED Pro Primes are a fresh sheet of paper design using the best glass and coating technology available anywhere. They are not re-housed anything. We'll have them, along with a lens projector, at the Reduser party in Las Vegas at the Rio Hotel.

Jim
 
Just like the RED 18-85mm zoom, the RED Pro Primes are a fresh sheet of paper design using the best glass and coating technology available anywhere. They are not re-housed anything. We'll have them, along with a lens projector, at the Reduser party in Las Vegas at the Rio Hotel.

Jim

Damn, wish I could be there for that!
 
So, they are not a sheet of paper anymore, I believe. ;-)
 
SJ said 5k for true 4k debayered, that is what I thought was so exiting about 5k cause I agree that 4k is plenty anyway, but 5k gets you "true" 4k wich means a lot for the big guys. And I agree that many would not mind adding a bit of light for a little more stopping down.

Still, I think this is going to be even cooler when you factor in that with a few years passed since Mysterium, there is NO WAY that we won't be seeing BIG advance in sensitivity. S/N simply HAS to be WAY better.

Of course I haz no clue about the actual state of sensor development. I am no engineer or industry insider, but consider this: In the same span of time we went from CPUs generating 95C of heat at a given voltage to a now 60C, at slightly higher voltages. Smaller architecture simply gets more effective hardware, the more effective it gets, the lower the voltages, the lower the heat, the lower the S/N. Anyway, I am rambling, but this has to mean that they are currently getting more sensitivity with equal SN, or most likely higher sensitivity with lower SN than R1. It has been a long time in electronic-years since Mysterium got released. And Red is going to release 3-month old hardware, not 1-year old stuff cause Jim is a relentless maniac who keeps changing things till the last second. We have to be a long way from Mysterium.

So I think we'll be able to stop down even more than necessary to get S35 DoF out of a sensor with a size somewhere between S35 and FF35.

And the double threat would be, if all this were true, that we'd also get us into the average lens sweet spot, right? Which would only seem calculated... a best of both worlds advantage. Larger photosites would effectively help push us into where Optics wants us to be.
 
Just like the RED 18-85mm zoom, the RED Pro Primes are a fresh sheet of paper design using the best glass and coating technology available anywhere. They are not re-housed anything. We'll have them, along with a lens projector, at the Reduser party in Las Vegas at the Rio Hotel.

Jim

Thank You Jim
When is that party?
 
don't expect a miracle.

don't expect a miracle.

Still, I think this is going to be even cooler when you factor in that with a few years passed since Mysterium, there is NO WAY that we won't be seeing BIG advance in sensitivity. S/N simply HAS to be WAY better.

I believe they have announced 1 stop improvement with Mysterium-X. That's good, but may not be WAY better depending on your expectations. Remember that camera sensors do not scale and improve quite the same way as computer chips do.

The most comparable thing to the Red camera progress, in my mind, is the development of DSLR sensors. For example, in the past 9 years Canon has gone through seven generations of mid-range 1.6x crop DSLRs (EOS D30,D60,10D,20D,30D,40D,50D). If you remove the effects of software noise reduction, I think the actual improvement in Canon's sensor SNR has been a few stops over that nine year period (just my impression from using the cameras- I haven't measured it).
 
I see, but Canon was probably holding back a bit on their R&D. Couldn't sensitivity be up a little more than one stop if S/N goes up by 1 stop?

By your logic, Monstro should be ISO 2000... and it is absolutely not. Too sweeping of a generalization. Too many other factors involved. Just sit back and try to relax. We'll post what it is when we know for sure after all the work is done.

Jim
 
Couldn't sensitivity be up a little more than one stop if S/N goes up by 1 stop?

One definition of sensitivity is "light gathering power" (or quantum efficiency). Another definition is "the suggested ISO rating for a camera which is based on light gathering power and read noise".

It's useful to understand that difference as well as the way that read noise and light gathering power affect the ISO rating.

Most people say that the RED ONE's "sensitivity" is ISO 320. This is a shorthand way of saying "a good exposure index to use for rating the camera to get a nice amount of highlight headroom and a certain amount of stops in the shadows". Some don't mind a little less highlight headroom, so they recommend ISO 250 or ISO 200 to get less noise in the shadows (more "footroom"). Others prefer to rate the camera at ISO 500 for even more highlight headroom when the shadows aren't as important.

So what causes a photographer to rate ISO the RED ONE at 320 or ISO 250?

There are two principle factors: quantum efficiency and read noise.

Quantum efficiency (QE) means "what percentage of light that strikes the sensor that is converted." If only 1% of the light striking a sensor is captured, that would be a low QE. 50% is a high QE.

Exposure and QE determines how much "photon shot noise" is in the image for a given sensor size. Most images are photon shot noise limited. The only way to improve photon shot noise is to collect more light. For a given sensor size you can collect more light by changing exposure (wider f-number, more lights, etc.) or improving the QE of the sensor.

The other factor is read noise. This type of noise typically only affects the shadows in most images.

So if RED improved QE in Mysterium-X twofold, they could change their rating from ISO 320 to ISO 640 and the improvement would be exactly as everyone expects. The theoretical maximum is 100% QE, but the practical limit in reality is closer to 40-70% due to pesky things such as trying to get accurate color.

If RED improved read noise twofold, the improvement will be a little bit different. Since it only affects shadows, rating the camera at ISO 640 would cause an increase in photon shot noise, so that noise gets worse in highlights, midtones, and shadows. But the noise in midtones and highlights isn't bothersome at all right now IMHO, so if that was the case I think most of us will be happy to make the trade for improved shadows.

For example, in the past 9 years Canon has gone through seven generations of mid-range 1.6x crop DSLRs (EOS D30,D60,10D,20D,30D,40D,50D). If you remove the effects of software noise reduction, I think the actual improvement in Canon's sensor SNR has been a few stops over that nine year period (just my impression from using the cameras- I haven't measured it).

Canon's QE has improved 5% in the last 1 year. 30% in the last 3 years, and 115% in the last 5 years. I'm not sure about before that. I think this signifies that Canon is hitting the practical limits to QE, though not the theoretically possible ones. [10D: 0.042 photo-electrons per 12-bit ADU per square micron. 50D: 0.100 e-/adu/um^2.]

Canon's biggest improvement in the last 5 years was high-ISO read noise. Combined with the QE improvement it allowed the high ISO shadows to improve S/N by 3.2 stops from 10D to 50D. (using S/N at 8 stops below clipping for 12 micron CoC).

Base ISO read noise and full well capacity improvements over the same time period improved base ISO dynamic range by 0.77 stops.

So... getting back to the question one more time:

Couldn't sensitivity be up a little more than one stop if S/N goes up by 1 stop?

It depends on where the S/N improvement occurs. The only way for it to occur equally in all exposure zones due to improvement in QE, which would be pretty incredible. A 1 stop improvement in read noise (shadow S/N) would allow the photographer to rate the camera at double the ISO and still get the same shadow noise as RED ONE. (Midtones and highlights would be a little noisier, but that will not be a problem for many folks). That, too, would be a tremendous improvement, and is much more likely to reside in the realm of reality.

I'm looking forward to Scarlet.
 
Sorry Jim, I feel like I am back in school about to get reprimanded by my professor, yet again, for talking way too much. But I feel I have to thank and answer to Daniel's post.

Daniel, thank you yet again for yet an other :a'la Bill and Ted: "most excellent" post. Only now I "found" photon shot noise: "occurs when the finite number of particles that carry energy, such as]...[photons in an optical device, is small enough to give rise to detectable statistical fluctuations in a measurement" - from Wiki, haha... or course!

Till now the only noise I knew was Read Noise, and all the while I wondered WTF is this read noise everyone is talking about?! :blushing:
 
SJ said 5k for true 4k debayered, that is what I thought was so exiting about 5k cause I agree that 4k is plenty anyway, but 5k gets you "true" 4k wich means a lot for the big guys.

Sorry but what is "true 4K"?
"Our" Northlight scanner scan 6k and then downscale to 4K/2K, that is to get the best MTF curve @ 4K/2K, as remember this scanner has a ccd sensor and is also limited by Nyquist, therefore in a way scanning 4K will never result in a "true 4K" image.
I think the debate about 4K or not is coming because of the 3 ccds cameras, where (as film in a way) you get 1 channels for each color, and not with a single "bayer" sensor, thus the "hey man, not true 4K" argument, but come on!

Also what's the "big boys"? Was not slumdog millionaire shot partially @2K "bayer" resolution, and are you sure the post production of the scanned film were really @ 4K?
I mean sure, this is not the 120 mio $ hollywood movie, but still I would put Dany Boyle in the "interesting director" category, not sure if that is also in the "big boys" one, but who cares?

As stated many many times, 2K finished resolution is enough for theatrical release, and 4K acquisition is enough also. Now if you want have the biggest resolution, why not do 3d animation movie @ 100K, sure render times get long, but come on, you will be the first to attempt it ;-)


cheers,
antoine.
 
Northlight is limited to 200 lppm on its optics anyway so hardly true 4k.
Adding precision of film movement that is equivalent of 150 lppm gives you effective resolution of the whole system to be good 2K as compared to digital cinema.
Digital Cinema does not convert or move the medium. No optics involved in converting or producing masters.
What you acquire is what you display in the digital projection.
At the end RED 4K gives you 50% better result than RGB 4K scan
 
Come on Antoine, I can only deal with so much ridicule per thread. Give me a break pls... : )

I guess what I meant by "big boys" was anyone who felt they needed "4k" straight to the film out. And I guess that makes me a "small boy" who would be perfectly happy to screen from a PS3 plugged into a 1080 projector in a garage if saves me some valuable cash to put into the film xP

I'll just try to shut up till DSMC is out and take what I get with a massive smile plastered across my face.
 
Sorry Roberto, no intention to be targeting to you ;-)
but I have to admit that I sometimes get annoyed by this "true 4K" stuff, I mean, what is it? 100% MTF @ nyquist limit and then 0%? If it doesn't exist, then why bother about it?

For me with redone 4K resolution, resolution is not a problem anymore, and I will stick with S35 cine lenses (still hoping for a monstro S35 4/3), more DR is more important as well as ergonomy and a few technical stuff (like multi display,...).

cheers,
antoine.
 
Exactly... for my non-DP eyes I don't need any more resolution than R1 already offers for 2.35 after watching Knowing... well I knew that ages ago. If we don't get a good film out it is on us for not doing things right. And with the lenses it seems we will be covered in every front without having to pay too much, so maybe we won't need to use a PS3 after all. : )
 
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