What are your future lens buying plans

[Roberto Lequeux]

So I take it there will be an Impero type of accessory, right? Will the RedMote be "part" of this accessory?

 

[david farland]

The advantages to me of the FF35 Monstro is 3 stops…that’s simply huge.

But I’ll have that with 4K crop or full 6K image.

So what additional advantage have I got using FF35 lenses with 6K (apart from shutting up everyone saying present R1 sensor ain’t real 4K)

• Cropping without softening image for film out.
• Green screen with great chroma rez (mentioned above).
• Pushing colour in post. (Will check how much benefit will be actually scene).
• Another biggie is down rezing from 6K in camera/post. Additional noise reduction.
• Others…??

Disadvantage of critical focus/breathing will hopefully be fixed by Red’s auto/cine FF35 range of lenses or Viewfactor’s solution. Double the file sizes will be no more of a problem in 2 years than Red file size is now.

I’m guessing Red will release 6K lenses at the same time they release the FF35 cameras.

So back to the question….what lenses (Red of course) will you buy.

Over the next 9 months they’ll have a range of S35 primes/zooms.
In 9 months Red will also have FF35 lenses.
I expect Red’s 6K lens offering will fulfil most equivalent S35 needs, (eventually).

Question (again)

1. Do you need additional S35 glass now? I do, but I hate the idea their worth will depreciate in 2 years!
2. In 1 or 2 years, if you buy a 6K camera, will you be happy to remain at 4.5K/5K image resolutions?
3. How will Red’s FF35 lenses compare to their S35 lenses?
4. What can you afford?

It’s gonna be a weird old lens world over the next 12 months.

D

Ps: Dan (or others)
Should similarly built lenses, a FF35 f2.8 lens covering a 6K sensor & a S35 f1.9 lens covering a 4K sensor, have the same MTF across their image circles?

 

[Joel Kaye]

The advantages to me of the FF35 Monstro is 3 stops…that’s simply huge.

I'd sure like to see a R3D side by side with RED at some point. Put me in the I'll believe it when I see it camp.

Same with lenses. I've got Birger/Canon's now and I'm happy... hoping the VF Impero works well when I get it. I'm not a resolution freak. I can already see the peach fuzz and wrinkles on everyone's face NOW. There's a point when good enough is good enough. If RED didn't overheat and was a few pounds lighter I probably wouldn't be looking at an upgrade too seriously. As it stands, the overheating thing is a real problem for me.

 

[Gordon Prince]

Canon L still lenses.

 

[Ivan G]

Man shits changing so fast, I don't know if I like this... It's beginning to remind me of computer upgrades! Yes I'm lovin the idea RED is cutting edge but the competition hasn't stepped on their toes or no where near yet and here comes another wave! Processors can barely keep up with 4K now we're talking 6K? I think this next generation of cameras and lenses will separate the boys from the men overall.

 

[Roberto B]

disagreed.. unless you call men to hollywood filmmakers boys and boys to the best noncommercial filmmakers men and women why not?

 

[Jannard]

If RED didn't overheat and was a few pounds lighter I probably wouldn't be looking at an upgrade too seriously. As it stands, the overheating thing is a real problem for me.

You need your camera checked out... no reason for this. What build are you on? What fan setting do you have checked?

Jim

 

[Hans von Sonntag]

Hi Daniel,

thanks for your interesting response!

Agreed. Some projects don't need more than 1080p and don't want the delay of downsizing in post. Hopefully, the 1080p recording mode on the new cameras speed up the workflow for those. For everyone else, there's 4K+.

The upcoming 1080p mode must be RGB. Shooting 4KHD, debayering half to 1080p and coding to 1080p RGB/YUV will lead to a new RedCode. Advertised in the last three years it never saw the light yet. The problem: The result will dramatically depend on the settings of the menue, the infamous metadata will baked in - for ever. This will bring Red in the realm of Sony. People will compare F35 footage with Red's (compressed) 1080p RGB footage. I'm still uncertain wether Red will implement in-camera debayering that can be recorded.

My experience is the opposite: that video looks "crisper" most of the time, due to oversharpening, aliasing, and interlace twitter. It is often also more more "prominent" due to the distracting oversaturation, blown highlights, posterization, and compression artifacts. 35mm, on the other hand, often has more contrast, less sharpening, less saturation, more pleasing tone curve, no aliasing, no interlace artifacts, etc. toe-may-toe toe-mah-toe.

The big difference is DOF. Shooting a closeup with a shallow DOF makes the forground much more prominent. The difference between blurred background (hardly any resolution) and in focus forground (full resolution) gives the forground a higher subjective resolution. You cannot do that with video. Wait... you can. Is the RedOne video?

I don't think that's the case. Here is how I would put it: FF35 does not offer any improvement in noise or dynamic range over S35 when used in low light at the same depth of field. It's only the same, not better or worse. (Given raw cameras with the same angle of view, perspective, and technology.)

Similarly, S35 does not offer any improvement over 1-chip 2/3" in low light when used at the same depth of field.

In other words: one must shoot thinner DOF in order to get any improvement in noise or dynamic range in low light.

Ample light is a different story; however, as one may get the noise/DR benefit of the larger sensor without changing the depth of field.

I tried to explain it in this thread.

I fully follow your agument here. But DOF is a variable that many don't want to vary too much. If you want a format that is well balanced between low light capabilities, not hardcore thin DOF and over all usability S35 seems to be a proved compromise, IMO. FF35 will exibit a considerable thinner DOF when we want to benefit from it's anticipated lower noise - and you want that, won't you?

I find for low light docco work a 2/3" system such as a f900R often more convenient and optically acceptable when good lenses are used.

Shooting FF35 must bring visible advantages not only in bright sunlight.

Yep, T/1.5 is as fast as they get. However, I think it should be pointed out that T/2.2 on FF35 has the same light gathering power as T/1.4 on S35, so it results in the same apparent exposure (brightness), noise, and dynamic range. (T/1.4 on FF35 would have less noise instead of just the same).

Fine. Nontheless I want to gain from FF35 and not achieve the same. This thread is about the question "Have S35 cine lenses a valid future, will my investment hold its value?" I say yes.

The golden route would be a S35mm DMSC camera that resolves 5K+ with the DR of the upcoming FF35 cameras. Here we would get the best balanced system for most applications.

I don't think that Jim Jannard is right when he thinks that still photoraphy and motion picture photography will merge to one single device at some point. Only because Nikon and Canon are producing DSLRs with limited film capabilities does not mean that photographers become handicapped filmakers and vice versa.

Hans

 

[Hans von Sonntag]

The advantages to me of the FF35 Monstro is 3 stops…that’s simply huge.

Hi David,

Jim stated elswhere that MysteriumX will have 1 Stop more DR than the current sensor. If you takes this in account FF35 Monstro will have 2 more stops DR which ist still huge.

Personally I will go the EpicX route first. I do think there will be a big run on Scarlets FF35 and they will be on backorder for a longe time - probably. This won't be the case with Epic FF35. With it's frame rate and sensor crop abilities it is aimed for the advanced film market. There won't be many around. When it's out we will have plenty of time to test it and to make a decision. Until then I will have shot 1-2 years with the EpicX and ROI will be accomplished as it is already with my current RedOne.

Hans

PS: Red's spec's often changed. Rarely to the worse. I bet there will be a 5K+ S35mm lens capable 12-13 stops DR EpicX Mk2 around.

 

[Sanjin Jukic]

PS: Red's spec's often changed. Rarely to the worse. I bet there will be a 5K+ S35mm lens capable 12-13 stops DR EpicX Mk2 around.

Hi,

I heard here that no any S35 lens would cover 5K+ brand new Mysterium-X RED sensor...

maybe you'll get more 1, 2 or 3 stops DR but you should be able to "accommodate" to work with "slower" FF35 still photo,

FF35 cine rehoused, new RED Pro series lenses, look for Panavision offer or even get Todd-AO, Super Panavision sort of 65mm/70mm lenses...

The most of those lenses aperture staring at f/2.8, 3.5 or 4, 5.6, +,...

 

[Roberto Lequeux]

Hans, I don't think I can see Red making an RGB 1080 out of the camera. I think they'll stick to giving you a RAW 1080p in their RedCode flavor.

 

[Hans von Sonntag]

Hans, I don't think I can see Red making an RGB 1080 out of the camera. I think they'll stick to giving you a RAW 1080p in their RedCode flavor.

Roberto, you don't want 1080p RAW. With a debayer factor of roughly 0.80 the measured resolution will be well... approx 860p.

Hans

 

[Frank Mirbach]

I would like to see 4k on full frame still size imager instead of 5 or 6k. I'd like the benefit of higher asa (500 or more) and the vista vision DOF. After 4k, I don't think resolution is as big a priority as sensitivity. RED's current 250 ASA is a big handicap, especially with night exteriors and mixing with available light.

I fully agree ! Resolution is absolutely sufficient in 4K already, so we´ll be fine with the 5K the EpicX has. Much more important is a faster chip!

Frank

 

[Roberto Lequeux]

Roberto, you don't want 1080p RAW. With a debayer factor of roughly 0.80 the measured resolution will be well... approx 860p.

Hans

Oh, yes, that's right. Still, I think they will give us whatever would translate to a perfect 1080 in RC.

 

[Hans von Sonntag]

Oh, yes, that's right. Still, I think they will give us whatever would translate to a perfect 1080 in RC.

They do that already with 4KHD.

Hans

 

[Roberto Lequeux]

Oh, ok, I see, that makes sense. I really need to find a couple of good debayer related threads and sit down with a big ol' cup of java in the morning.

However, going into making an RedCode comparable RGB is a big endeavor obviously. They have lots of die hard followers thanks to the size and quality of their RAW compression. So I think if anything, it will be done in the form of a module so they can continue to concentrate on their built in clientele for a while. They seem extremely concerned with their second camera coming to market in the opposite fashion that R1 did so so they can take that second step as a company and silence all negative buzz.
Of course they too must see the benefits, but I don't think it will be out for a while longer. Also, they have so much buzz already all they don't need to even announce such a module at NAB'09. So while I bet they will get into that market, I don't see them doing it now.

And then again it might be RedRay... a little pocket sized anything in anything out deck and playback device.

 

[Frank Mirbach]

There are many points to consider:

1. Pal/NTSC is around since 40 years or more. Most TV stations still broadcast SD. I bet 1080 will be around for the next 3 or 4 decades.

2. Less than 1/100 of higher budget projects will end up on the big screen. Not to mention all the music video, ads, coperate stuff, doccos, etc...

3. According to IBU modern 35mm projection is around 720p, maxing out at 800p. Most find the traditional screen already a challenge when ist comes to focus, VFX, etc....

4. Resolution is subjective. Why does a 35mm shot commercial look on televison so much crisper and prominent than on video shot news? Both have the same measured resolution.

5. Digital projection will be seen soon in many cinemas, no doubt. Is measured full 4K necessary? I doubt this. See point 3. and 4.

5. With S35mm I can control DOF nicely and find it very balanced between deep DOF and shallow DOF. With FF35 this will be more difficult.

6. FF35mm is an even bigger challenge focuswise. I find S35mm challenging enough. Devices such as electronic FF systems won't change the fact that the DOF is more shallow and hence more difficult to nail.

7. Speed. I don't know of any wideangle FF lens with a T Stop of 1.4.

8. Zooms. There are many who would love to see a S35mm zoom that maginfies 10 times but should not weight more than 2 kilogramm. Currently a S35mm 10-1 zoom weights 5+ kilogramm. Seems to be hard to pull off, if not impossible. FF35 will be even harder in this regard. Does anyone want a 10-1 which is even bigger than the Optimo 24-290?

Jim did turned the motion picture camera world up side down. But there are so many points that are not in favour of a FF35mm motion picture system which is not only used for the big digital screen but many other applications that investing in traditional S35mm glas remains meaningful, IMO.

Hans

Good post Hans !

Greetings,

Frank

 

[Sanjin Jukic]

People should know a little bit more of the following facts:

- RED1 was advertising from the beginning that it will deliver 4K resolution that would (?) equal to S35mm film scans.

- Later they've got many critics that RED1 (because of Debayering...,...blah, blah) is not delivering a full 4K resolution that can equal S35mm 4K film scans

- Even Graeme Nattress said that RED Mysterium sensor can deliver after Debayering process a bit more than 3.2K resolution (at the CML forum lately).

- All that Mysterium sensor resolution sort of "speculation" was enough for Jim Jannard and then he said:

:sifone: Now we'll give them FIVE (5K+ sensor)... :sifone:

- Why 5K+...?

- Just because if you would "debayer" from 5K+ sensor then you will for sure get exactly about 4K resolution that could equal resolution of S35mm 4K film scans.

- But 5K+ sized sensor is a bit lager than S35mm sized sensor and the most of S35mm lenses would not cover that.

- That is way RED must make a totally new line of cine lenses that can fit to the lager sensor size.

- Of course you can use another type of lenses like a FF35 still photo, etc...

- But the most of professional DPs want to have a cine lens mechanics, longer throw follow focus ring, exact markings, etc...

 

[Jamon Lewis]

I think that most Scarlet's market are people come'n from lens adapters with still glass. As far as the extra (shallow) DOP that comes with FF,we are used to lighting for f5.6- f8 now as it is so I think many are prepared to set up that extra light so the lens can be stopped down to gain that extra DOP that will be needed with FF.

I know personally I'm tired of the crop factor and want FF image, I want the focal length that it says on the lens. I'm in my buying cycle for a new camera and S35 is more or less the price I would pay for any other competitors cam with specs not even in the same world as Scarlet. For me (and I think for alot of people) spending the extra $2,000 for FF instead of S35 and using the glass they already have works out (financially) better than buying S35 and springing for a new set of lenses.

To be clear i will have a set of RPPs or MPs one day but I wont wait till I can get them to rock and roll.

 

[Joel Kaye]

You need your camera checked out... no reason for this. What build are you on? What fan setting do you have checked?

Jim

I was a little unclear - sorry 'bout that.

It's only when I'm in ambient temps over 100 degrees. Anytime ambient temp is under 90 the camera has been fine so I believe it's operating to spec.

I believe the body hot warning comes on at 104 and shutdown is 115. If EPIC can keep operating at ambient temps of 115 (not sure what that would put the body temp at) I think you'd probably have it licked. The guys in Australia and the Middle East might have more thoughts though.

I know you guys want to sell the next round of cameras but I sometimes think everyone forgets how good the image quality of what you've already created is. :sifone: