What are the benefits to grading R3D compered to ProRes444?

[Edwin Street]

I'm preparing my workflow and am considering these options:

1) Editing with 4K ProRes 444 files that I've converted from Redcine-x Pro. Then grading the final cut in DaVinci Resolve.

2) Editing with 1080p ProRes Proxy files, conforming at the end and grading the original R3D files in DaVinci Resolve.

If I chose option 1, will I lose many benefits grading ProRes444 instead of conforming and grading R3D?

If I chose option 2, will I need a Red Rocket graphics card to grade smoothly in real time in DaVinci?

 

[BigLu]

What color space and gamma space did you or do you plan on using when you export out to 4K PR4x4 files?
There are pros and cons to this flow.
Not a bad choice at all but does have limitations.
I can help you better once I understand the above and what you transcode with computer power and do you have a RRX.

Op 2 will you need a RRX to grade smoothly in real time? Well if you want to play back its dependent on your computer power.
You will see your level of tolerance on speed if you do a simple R3D into your system test on DaVinci and see for yourself if its fast enough without a RRX.
I myself don't find myself using one. Would I like one? SURE am i hurting without it. Not really my Trashcan has been pleasant.
But once I start really getting deep into it i may change my mind.

Best of luck.

 

[Marc Wielage]

I've done both and there are pros and cons either way. If the R3D files are decoded correctly -- with the right color temperature and ISO settings -- I think you have the range within ProRes 444 to still get any look you need. The pros with ProRes 444 is that this eliminates a lot of overhead on your computer so it only has to deal with color correction and doesn't have to debayer the footage. The cons are that you can't get to all the little subtle adjustments within the camera raw file, but again, as long as the ISO and color temp are right, I think you can get there.

But the other con is assuming the person doing the transcodes will get all those settings right. And I've seen some disasters when they were not right, particularly with 3200 vs. 5600-degree color temperature misadjustments.

There are cases where I've been able to squeak by and get a little more highlight detail by dropping the ISO down from R3Ds during correction, using going from 800 down to 500 or even 320. Other log and primary adjustments can help even it all out.

In cases of projects with lots of repositions, I think it makes more sense to have the actual camera raw file and work with a 4K or 5K timeline, just to give you that extra resolution for the blow-up -- even if the final delivery is just 1080 HD. The new Mac Pros can deal with this fine so long as you have the D700 GPUs and have a fast enough processor.

I think both workflows are valid, but what makes the final determining factor is time, budget, and your intended delivery format. If you have the time and money, going with R3D is absolutely the best way to go. But if you have to turn the project around very quickly, then I think the ProRes 444 files are faster to work with, using a preconformed timeline with one piece of media or relinking to new files.

 

[Edwin Street]

BigLu, what is colour space and gamma space? When I transcoded to PR4x4 I left all settings as they were taken in camera and leave Gamma Correction set to none. I have a MacPro5,1 - 3.33GHz 6-Core with plenty of ram, no RRX.

I did a simple test opening an R3D file in Resolve but it didn't let me drop it into the timeline or grade it??

Planning to blow it up on the big screen 4K delivery but Blu-ray is an option too.

 

[Nick Shaw]

…what is colour space and gamma space? When I transcoded to PR4x4 I left all settings as they were taken in camera…

If you transcoded with camera settings, chances are you will have transcoded as something like REDgamma3 and REDcolor3. While you can grade images with these settings, you would have more flexibility in the grade if the gamma had been set to REDlogFilm. However, REDlogFilm looks "flat" without a LUT or grade applied, so you would normally apply a LUT in your NLE to see the image looking "normal" during editorial. What NLE are you using?

 

[Edwin Street]

I'm using FCP7.

 

[Nick Shaw]

I'm using FCP7.

FCP 7 does not really work with 4K files properly. It can be used with UHD (3840x2160). I seem to remember there are hacks to make it sort of work with 4k files, but test thoroughly before setting out on a project using that.

Ignoring the 4k issue for a moment, if you want to use REDlogFilm media in FCP 7, you need to apply a LUT. I have a plugin which does that. Follow the link in my signature and try the demo.

 

[Edwin Street]

Hi Nick, thanks, I found the gamma and colour space section in Redcine-x so I'll be sure to use your LUT plugin if I decide to go with REDlogFilm.

Regarding 4K and FCP7, it can be done, just needs a powerful enough computer because everything needs rendering, even simple fades and transitions. FCP7 can handle any resolution contrary to what people say. I've tested a 6.5K file and was able to export it at the same resolution. One glitch to keep in mind though is that the Sequence Settings of the Timeline will only display a maximum resolution of 4096x4096. Even if your timeline frame size is larger. But you can check the actual dimensions in the Browser window under Frame Size. Here it will always show you the actual resolution.

 

[Brian Merlen]

how does a higher end computer help anything when your using a 32 bit program that can't even allocate 4gb of ram? even if you were to use a 12 core d700 machine with fcp7 it seems like the 32 bit program would negate the higher end machine by crippling it ram wise? 12 cores and lots of vram won't run well with a 2.5gb feed of actual ram, correct?

 

[BigLu]

Ok Edwin

This can get somewhat confusing and it does not have to be.
Now that I understand this is somewhat a new thing and your exploring / learning.

CHECK IT OUT I've got you.

Transcode in REDCINE X to ProRes 422 or ProRes 422LT 1080p all of your files.
Use DRAGONColor and use RED Gamma 4 as your settings
Find a while balance on your clips to your liking and find the ISO settings to your liking.

Work in an Offline / Online workflow.
Transcode everything to 1080p
DO NOT CHANGE ANY FILE NAMES EVER that RCX makes from the QT files.
Do your entire edit in FCP7

Finish your cut do your entire edit. Do NOT stress over the colors much do not stress over the look to much. Get to your locked picture.
Then when you lock picture you will want to do an Online conform with the XML FCP 7 spits out.
You can go back to RCX or finish in any program you desire that reads R3D at the resolution you desire.

1080 4K or whatever you want to output at.

Reason for this is
DONT Waste your time grading footage your never ever gonna use say you shot X amount of footage and in your final product you only use say 5% or 10% of your footage makes it to the final.

Don't waste your time on that other 90% spend that time being creative in your edit time.

I hope this is understandable and helps you out.
If you got detailed questions hit me up any time
All the best to ya.
Luis

 

[Nick Shaw]

DONT Waste your time grading footage your never ever gonna use say you shot X amount of footage and in your final product you only use say 5% or 10% of your footage makes it to the final.

I am generally in favour of offline/online workflows too, and I certainly agree that it would be a waste of time to fully grade all your rushes when you are not using most of them. But it is a valid option to quickly confirm white balance and exposure on everything and then transcode to ProRes4x4 REDlogFilm. You are then doing an "Alexa style" workflow from there on.

However I would not like to comment on the viability of that workflow for a 4K finish without thorough testing. Transcoding everything at 4K without a Rocket would take a long time, and you need a LUT during editorial. If the NLE can't handle a real-time LUT (I doubt FCP 7 can apply my plugin in real time at 4K) you would constantly be re-rendering, which would slow editorial down.