What about docs?

[mike70]

After seeing the camera, what are people's impressions of the red as a documentary/verite tool, in single shooter situations (or with sound man only)? The clarity of the footage blew me away, but when I saw the camera mounted with all of its rails and boxes, I thought, uh oh.

A bit of background: I'm not a shooter by trade ( I was a feature film editor), but I shot my last feature length doc with the panny dvx100 and loved it as a tool and loved the 24 look. Even on a big screen (digital projection from Digibeta master), the footage looks great. But SD is dead, and from what I've read, HDV is DOA, which leaves me looking at HDCAM or red.

I went to Las Vegas to answer questions, and to some extent I did: I'm reading on various threads about having to use a tape measure for focus, but I played with the evf and lcd for quite a while (even had the guys move the cable so I could see how the lcd reacted when tilting the camera), and I felt that both viewfinders allowed for accurate focusing, even in the booth's low light situation.

Still, as a novice shooter, I was relying on many of the prosumer crutches of the dvx: altho I never used auto focus, I did rely on auto exposure to get me in the ballpark, and the image stabilization really helped with the amount of hand-held shooting I did (60 hours). And the camera's lightness was a plus.

I watched my film again last night and found myself wondering if I could replicate the shots with the Red--or would it be out of focus half the time and shaky as hell.

I've ordered the camera, but I'm taking much on faith. I would love to hear from those shooters who intend to use the camera for verite shooting.

 

[Fix]

well if you want to show your doc at one of the bigger channels like discovery HD/national geographic HD etc. you got to go HDCAM or something better which leaves you to 35mm or other high end digital cameras like the Red. For the price i would guess the red is absolutely a killer also in the doc marked.

 

[Ken Corben]

HDCAM is a great HD verite solution - they're is even a new stripped down version that does 1080i for only $60K with an optional board for 25p. Add batteries/charger, a good Fujinon lens and you might get out the door for under $90k after taxes. If you have this kind of money to drop and prefer to remain in tape based media then you benefit from the internal filter wheels, ENG type lenses and the other video familiar technology. Of course you need to pay for digital dailies from the HDCAM masters if you plan to edit it yourself or drop the additional $50K+ for an HDCAM VTR plus the Kona or AJA computer interfaces add another $5-10K

OR

REDONE with Red 18-50mm zoom, red drives, red batteries, EVF, redrail etc maybe $35K all in? And you are 4K plug and play with redcine and FCP 6. That kinda' answers the HDCAM vs REDONE question for me but I am a professional shooter so your next question is valid - will it work for you on your specific applications - I would say with training and practice - ABSOLUTELY. I know what you mean when you reference the cine style set up for the camera display at NAB - beautiful to my eye - but keep in mind this cine style set up is akin to the panavision camera setups we use on features/MOW's and TV series where there are literally five professionals supporting the one camera (four if you don't count the film loader). There in lies the sophistication of simplicity for the REDONE modular concept. Strip it down and rebuild it for EFP and it will also be just as beautiful yet far more streamlined, lightweight, etc.

I am really looking forward to seeing the RED EFP rig that Gibby builds. He's probably shot every possible format and configuration available in the verite non-fiction genre since before I knew girls did in fact NOT have cooties. The EFP set up will shake itself out long before your camera ships allowing you plenty of time to learn from this great community and master the simple math behind DOF, ND filtration and fstops that will be crucial to your next DOC film project.

YOU CAN DO IT...

caveat:There are always exceptions - low light conditions verite style with the RED would lead to focus challenges if for example your DOC is on the late night drinking habits of Paris Hilton.

 

[Jiri Bakala]

Mike, I am dealing with the same issues - eventhough I am a professional DP. Some of the big questions still are:
-long form docs - dealing with a lot of footage in the field
-verite - the advantage of smaller less obtrusive camera
-travel with a small crew and to a tricky locations - smaller camera can pass for consumer camcorder while Red won't

However, all these apply equally to full size broadcast cameras as well. I think that my solution will be Red for good size budgets with full support, while something like the Sony V1U or their new XDCAM EX for the rest. As with everything, there isn't one solution for every situation.

I always think of MacGillivray Freeman Films taking IMAX to Everest (they are there right now for a sequel) and then feel more inspired and encouraged - you can take Red anywhere...

 

[Jason Sturgis]

Mike,
Thanks for starting this thread. I, like bakalaj, are having the same issues about what it will be like shooting a doc with limited crew in far away locations. How to get a easy workflow and provide secure backups when you are out in the field for a month- questions bouncing around in my mellon.
From what I have read on this forum, it looks like there are some pretty good solutiuons out there for workflow and backup. Who would have believed 2 years ago that any of this would be possible with 4k. Thanks to the Red team, it is a reality.
Sharkguy,thanks for your input. I am also looking forward to some of the discussions about the stripped down versions for REDONE. Also to hear how your underwater housing set up is coming- very cool!!
I still have a long way to go in my REDucation but this forum has been huge in helping me along the path. Thanks all!

 

[Zack Birlew]

One RED Drive can fit about 3 hours of 4K Redcode, I'd imagine there would be a lot more for 720P-2K resolutions below that. If you need even more footage, I'd start thinking about more RED Drives and, more importantly, more batteries!

Also, RED Drives are very lightweight, so they won't weigh you down at all if you're on the move.

As far as backups go, there's a lot of choices for hard drives at the moment, whether single or in RAID arrays.

 

[Martin Drew]

Bear in mind that you can shoot 2K with a s16 lens or a B4 lens. In this scenario DOF will be pretty much the same as for 2/3" cameras. That is the beauty of Red it is very versatile.

M

 

[Mike the beginner]

One RED Drive can fit about 3 hours of 4K Redcode, I'd imagine there would be a lot more for 720P-2K resolutions below that. If you need even more footage, I'd start thinking about more RED Drives and, more importantly, more batteries!

Also, RED Drives are very lightweight, so they won't weigh you down at all if you're on the move.

As far as backups go, there's a lot of choices for hard drives at the moment, whether single or in RAID arrays.

I am glad you mentioned batteries Jack. I read somewhere that one battery should last about two hours. Looks like i might not get away with just having two batteries for six hours of recording.

Mike the beginner

 

[Volker Ehlers]

Hi Mike,

I have shot a couple of documentaries on MINI35. It is a similar situation where (imitating) a larger format brings advantages but makes shooting more difficult. We often use Cooke 25-250mm on docs and my focus puller knows what that means.
Giving him an eye mark on the fly by zooming in and judging focus seems only reliable with a HD-SDI monitor with pixel to pixel function. And monitoring is sometimes just not possible.

As for hand held we love using a 35mm Zeiss SuperPrime. To get a nice portrait shot we usually work with object distances of 3-5 feet. With a T2 (very often) we generally face a depth of filed of less than a feet. Beautiful but it doesn't take much movement until you need to pull!Hence the need for a good focus puller.

Shooting with only Sound assistant and no focus puller might be easier on windowed 2K using S-16 lenses. It would also allow you to use zooms hand held and you could pick eye focus for yourself.

I certainly love "cinematic" docs but would want to shoot them without my AC. What looks "sharp" on a lower resolution can be "nearly sharp" on full resolution where suddenly you see that extra detail and its on the back of the head/ tip on the nose - rather than the eye where you want it to be.
Hope that helps
Volker

 

[Jason Sturgis]

I guess people shooting docs will have to see if they want to go lighter and shoot 2K(windowed sensor using S-16 lenses) OR stay in 4K and have that image for your master. I think that I will end up shooting 4K and go with a potentialy more cumbersome set up. However, as people start to use the camera I am sure there will be some pretty trick methods to keep things compact and still get the goods in 4k.
Also, does anyone know if they have phased out the 18-85mm zoom for the 18-50 zoom?

 

[JustinGD]

YOU CAN DO IT...

Can this apply to me too? Sharkguy, your explanation answered a lot of my questions too. I can't wait to start learning. Thanks.

 

[Damien Molineaux]

We have a doc which was initially planned for this summer, but the shoot has just been pushed back to Sept.-Oct. Since we're supposed to get our Red in August, we are now considering shooting it with it. I have a Zeiss S16 zoom so we're planning to shoot in 2K, also because it allows more footage per GB. Backup will be done in the field simultaneously to two HDs (in Raid 1), which will be carried separately. We'll probably use 750 GB disks as their price is coming down due to the arrival of 1 TB drives. Of course the lens will have to be tested out first (and the camera). Anyhow, these are my choices for doc.

Cheers,
Damien

 

[Fix]

Im a little bit curious about traveling with this cam. That is, plane, train etc. Its not like HDV or a HDCAM.

Anyways, think about this. Like maybe 5 years from now, you go from a-b by plane (long distanse), travel into the jungel, shoot for 12 hours, the happy tribe doing the moon dance (Guess they have figure out some better Hard drives and battery at that time), go back to your camp and transfer all the data in a couple of hours over the Satellit nett to your happy-cutter back home. The best thing is. When you get back home the doc is viewing 1080p on the nett in all its glory. instant-doc for short

 

[donatello b]

within 2 weeks of receiving RED 103 i'll be flying to salt lake city to shoot a interview for a doc ... i plan to travel the lightest i can - cam, 2 batts(no charger), lens ... will rent tripod etc in SLC ... planning to carry camera on board plane ... from that shoot i'll learn something about traveling with camera ...i'll let you all know about traveling experience ... as of now will shoot 4k for a 720p project...

 

[Steve Sherrick]

It was mentioned that the 18-85mm was put on the back burner. Not sure if it's dead yet, just pushed back at the moment.

 

[Video Sceptic]

18-50 lens, RAID 0 makes for a tough doc situation

18-50 lens, RAID 0 makes for a tough doc situation

After watching the Red screening, I was blown away with the quality. Thought Red is totally cutting edge.

After seeing the 18-50 lens instead of the promised 5:1 zoom, I thought to myself this lens will not work for documentary shooting. No chance for cut aways in a cinema verite situation, and not long enough for an interview. Typical portrait lens => 85mm. One of the Red team members suggested since I had 4K footage, I could zoom in in post and get my close ups. How do I plan that while hand holding? Using a 2/3" lens or a 16mm lens is not taking advantage of the Red promise--full 35mm depth of field. Using a high quality 2/3" HD zoom with the 3500.00 B4 adaptor = mondo bucks. Another suggestion was buy a Cooke 5:1 on the open market. Not sure what that might run. Perhaps 2X the cost of the Red body?

I asked another Red fellow about Raid 0 safety issues, what happened to Raid 1, he told me, that that I might want to shoot with the Flash chips. Again flash chips will not work for a Doc.

Red seems like a fantastic system, but it still needs to prove itself day in and day out. As an owner/operator, I can't invest that kind of capital without a track record or client base. It is a tremendous bargain going up against the Sony F-900 or a Viper, but the original DVX on steroids concept does not apply. A basic rig with the 3:1 zoom costs 10 times as much as the DVX. Treating Red as an experiment without a built in client base requires very deep pockets.

 

[Ken Corben]

After seeing the 18-50 lens instead of the promised 5:1 zoom, I thought to myself this lens will not work for documentary shooting. No chance for cut aways in a cinema verite situation, and not long enough for an interview. Typical portrait lens => 85mm.

Video Sceptic are you French? LOL.

Dude, don't be so hard on yourself or traditionalist in the genre. It's all about telling a great story and the demand for HD format is exploding. No cutaways- HUH? Also, if the traditional 85mm portrait look is a must keep in mind the math:

A CMOS digital lens format conversion factor of 1.5 means that the RED 18-50 is a 25-75 35mm lens equivalent - that's pretty darn close for the price. Keep in mind it's also about pushing the envelope in applying HD technology. The amount of lighting is similar and the difference in look between an 85 and 75 will only be noticed by you (and your DP?). Also, important to note RED has always said and continues to say, "specifications subject to change." No lenses have ever been "PROMISED."

I asked another Red fellow about Raid 0 safety issues, what happened to Raid 1, he told me, that that I might want to shoot with the Flash chips. Again flash chips will not work for a Doc.

HUH? The 32GB flash will record 25-30 minutes of 4K redcode RAW once formatted and the change out time is what 15 seconds. Why does that not work? In the old days we had to change friggin' magazines - geez, changing a tape takes more time than changing a flash card. I do not understand why it doesn't work?

Red seems like a fantastic system, but it still needs to prove itself day in and day out. As an owner/operator, I can't invest that kind of capital without a track record or client base. It is a tremendous bargain going up against the Sony F-900 or a Viper, but the original DVX on steroids concept does not apply. A basic rig with the 3:1 zoom costs 10 times as much as the DVX. Treating Red as an experiment without a built in client base requires very deep pockets.

OK, Now I can finally agree with you. The system is currently BETA and does have to be fleshed out for our genre, but that's the beauty of it really. If you ordered one today by the time your camera was ready to ship in 8-12 months RED originated DOCS will already be airing and screening and this forum, as well as other sources, will have shared the trials and tribulations as well as the solutions. I would say that a $1750 fully refundable deposit is a rather low risk investment. But that's just my opinion.

 

[overlandfilms]

I'm still tied to (for the immediate future) HDCam 1080i 59.94 deliverables. My people tell me that until something changes for the widely-accepted and adopted better in digital archiving, work for the tiffany HD network(s) requires a tape-out delivery and storage masters.

I don't know what the Big Four are doing, but I don't work for them.

 

[Video Sceptic]

French Artist seeks enlightenment, a Redvolution

French Artist seeks enlightenment, a Redvolution

The slight against the French shows a lack of artistic reverence for certain cultural powerhouses of the Western World--Hugo, Godard, Truffaut, Tartuffe, Monet, Gaugan. And a camera maker like Aaton. Sounds like USA tunnel vision dude. I think Jannard is French as well. Don't bit the hand that feeds you RED. LOL.

This forum's main design, aside from selling cameras, is to generate constructive ideas on ways to improve RED product. More power to RED for it's ambitions.

What I presented in my analysis were legitimate concernts for both the documentary filmmaker and a wider market. It is imprudent to shoot RAID 0. RAID 1 is essential for peace of mind. Peace of mind, a flying above technical worries, releases that magificent, poetic inner French voice.
Unless you have an assistant standing next to you at all times to wrangle cards and feed the computer, forget Flash in a long form verite situation. Bring on the 5X zoom ASAP. Bring on RAID 1 ASAP. A program to monitor drive health would help too.
Long live France. Long live Jannard.

 

[Ken Corben]

Well Video Sceptic I can see that you and I are not going to agree on much. I studied filmmaking under Jean Pierre Gordin a student of Goddard - he laughed at my French jokes - my "crack" about you being French is a sense of humor that obviously fell on deaf ears.

I am a huge fan of Oscar winner Jacques Perrin's work and was honored when he said as much of my work. So much for the French tunnel vision Dude.

And for the life of me I will never understand how a 32 GB (25 minute record time) compact flash card will fail a verite long form film when the very French roots of verite come from 35 and 16mm film with 5-10 minute loads and a minimum of several minutes to "reload" a French made ACL or NPR.

I agree we disagree and may you find the solution to continue your success as a filmmaker for that is what really matters - not whether RED fails the verite long form genre.

c'est la vie