Welcome to our community
Be a part of something great, join today!
Werner Herzog and RED
- Thread starter Phillip Stefani
- Start date
- Status
, not just Werner.
Harry Clark
Well-known member
"our"
H.
Ha! Glad you did not flame me...
H.
Ha! Glad you did not flame me...
Last edited:
Anson Fogel
Well-known member
- Joined
- Sep 14, 2008
- Messages
- 537
- Reaction score
- 0
- Points
- 0
- Age
- 53
- Location
- Salt Lake City
- Website
- www.camp4collective.com
To be fair
To be fair
As with other posters, I have to make a balanced argument for Mr. Herzog's substance - he has done a lot for all of us as an artist, pushing the boundaries of art especially in verite. Put his concerns in context - his art often depends on filming run and gun in the real sense of the phrase, and he is accustomed to tools that support that as part of their core design. Compare an older version R1 to other classic tools for the genre...
Let's be objective here, the R1 is not a great run and gun tool - yes, I do it, yes, there are ways - but the boot time is a killer at times no matter what workarounds are used, especially when filming doc. The onboard audio interface, the form factor, the battery life - come on, its not a great run and gun tool! Red has obviously digested this for the next round of cameras. I carry a 5d or EX alongside red for all these reasons, albeit under protest.
His tone and delivery is in keeping with his character - impassioned and hyperbolic. But its not hard to see how he would reach the conclusion. Criticize his delivery and hyperbole, but not the core argument. His core argument is accurate for the tool in the hands of non hardcore red folks.
To be fair
As with other posters, I have to make a balanced argument for Mr. Herzog's substance - he has done a lot for all of us as an artist, pushing the boundaries of art especially in verite. Put his concerns in context - his art often depends on filming run and gun in the real sense of the phrase, and he is accustomed to tools that support that as part of their core design. Compare an older version R1 to other classic tools for the genre...
Let's be objective here, the R1 is not a great run and gun tool - yes, I do it, yes, there are ways - but the boot time is a killer at times no matter what workarounds are used, especially when filming doc. The onboard audio interface, the form factor, the battery life - come on, its not a great run and gun tool! Red has obviously digested this for the next round of cameras. I carry a 5d or EX alongside red for all these reasons, albeit under protest.
His tone and delivery is in keeping with his character - impassioned and hyperbolic. But its not hard to see how he would reach the conclusion. Criticize his delivery and hyperbole, but not the core argument. His core argument is accurate for the tool in the hands of non hardcore red folks.
Big Kids hot swap and pack enough Lithium to burn all day.
Herzog is one of my heroes, he can say or do what he wants, in my eyes he's won that right a thousand times over. I just wish his AC / DIT had known how to use the camera in a professional manner.
Matt Uhry
www.mattuhry.com
Herzog is one of my heroes, he can say or do what he wants, in my eyes he's won that right a thousand times over. I just wish his AC / DIT had known how to use the camera in a professional manner.
Matt Uhry
www.mattuhry.com
Oliver Peters
Well-known member
- Joined
- Apr 5, 2009
- Messages
- 263
- Reaction score
- 0
- Points
- 0
Just as an FYI - Herzog does have a point-of-comparison. He shot his "Encounters at the End of the World" documentary with Sony XDCAM.
http://digitalfilms.wordpress.com/2008/10/11/encounters-at-the-end-of-the-world/
- Oliver
http://digitalfilms.wordpress.com/2008/10/11/encounters-at-the-end-of-the-world/
- Oliver
Peter Strietmann
Well-known member
- Joined
- Mar 31, 2008
- Messages
- 1,376
- Reaction score
- 0
- Points
- 0
- Location
- NorCal
- Website
- peterstrietmann.com
Sorry - I need to defend one of my idols here
Herzog is not a fool. He is a genius and one of the ballsiest and most creative filmmakers around.
OK, I was wrong. He is not a fool. He is really smart.
Eren Ozkural
Well-known member
- Joined
- Dec 11, 2007
- Messages
- 837
- Reaction score
- 0
- Points
- 0
- Location
- London/Istanbul
- Website
- www.rawmfilm.com
Okay, aside from the factual error in his statement (4 1/2 minutes boot time) I totally understand Herzog. I love the RED almost beyond reason but it's just a tool...and far from perfect.
Herzog also has a career that's littered with classic film making..and his recent output is still great as anywone who likes their Nic Cage with a side of crazy will attest.
Let's face it. The RED One needs to be more stable. Needs to boot up lightning quick. It needs more power options. We can't deny any of this....and that's why I can't wait for DSMC. All of this is coming and much, much more!
RED knew nothing when they were making their first camera. The fact that it's as good as it eventually turned out to be is almost miraculous.
RED know something about building cameras now and Scarlet/Epic will be the fruit of their labour.
Tomorrow? RED just might be dangerous
Herzog also has a career that's littered with classic film making..and his recent output is still great as anywone who likes their Nic Cage with a side of crazy will attest.
Let's face it. The RED One needs to be more stable. Needs to boot up lightning quick. It needs more power options. We can't deny any of this....and that's why I can't wait for DSMC. All of this is coming and much, much more!
RED knew nothing when they were making their first camera. The fact that it's as good as it eventually turned out to be is almost miraculous.
RED know something about building cameras now and Scarlet/Epic will be the fruit of their labour.
Tomorrow? RED just might be dangerous
Kobe Van Steenberghe
Well-known member
Hi Stephen,
We always extensevely test when a new firmware is put on the camera and I must say we only had a problem once (when in playback, the camera jammed and rebooted) so we stopped using the playback (there was no issue with recording). The next day the camera was on the previous build.
Never had a problem with the battery plates, but have read about it.
Seems we use a really 'nice' camera ;-)
The red one has it's weaker points, but hey, if you learn to deal with them it's just a great piece of equipement. A good AC/DIT can make so much difference.
kind regards
Marc Berger
Well-known member
The 4 1/2 min statement about booting time seems to be a "feeling" not a real experience. Sometimes it feels like 10 minutes, depends the circumstances. Sometimes even the fastest autofocus is not fast enough. Werner Herzog is a director. He´s responsability is to choose the crew and the tools with he can achieve his style of working and the wanted look. He´s in my opinion a very open minded Director and ready to take every chance for experiments if it helps his films. I just think about some scenes from Nosferatu he shot in S-8 to get the right look. R1 can be light, smooth, always ready or just a heavy brick. Depends how much you love to work with it. If somebody don´t like the tool he´s working with, he better change it. In fact its very simple.
Marc
Marc
JonathanF
Well-known member
I have tried to stay out of these threads and not contribute to the general white noise level on reduser, but reading this particular thread today really pissed me off so I'm putting the dogs out...
I can't believe the gall of some users here, insulting a greatly respected DGA member. A man who is both highly influential, and arguably one of filmmaking's modern day living legends. He's directed over 50 films and written nearly that number for f*&% sake.
This is one of the things that makes me want to not log into RedUser some days, a bunch of industry newcommers and wanna be's bad mouthing icons of our profession.
Herzog is a man of great dedication, passion and impeccable integrity.
To me it's not only myopic to insult a man of his standing and accomplishment, but foolish. There are many who silently agree with many of the points Werner made but quietly reveal their concerns in private with those who can do something about it. While he could have been more diplomatic, that's not his style and Werner has always been a forthright if not downright blunt character (to his credit). He was asked a forthright question and he gave an honest answer that reflected his personal experience.
Given Werner's contributions to the profession and his lifetime of passionate work, he deserves a little more respect than he got here on Reduser.
How about we take a break from the kool-aid teat for a couple minutes and regain some perspective?
While frustration may have colored Herzog's experience and comments, people accustomed to working with high precision camera systems like Panavision, Aaton and Arri largely feel the R1 lacks the beautiful precision of those camera systems. This is no secret.
A brand new Arricam Lite costs upwards of $200,000 fitted out, not $17000, there are going to be quality differences, get over it. You have to acknowledge this or you're simply not being honest.
I grew up with those camera systems and I am the first one to agree that the Arri cameras are simply stunning in terms of their precision. I love using them, the ergonomics are fantastic and they are simply fun to use. Like driving a brand new 911.
We're talking about insanely obsessive German craftsmanship. A modern Arri camera is like a finely crafted handmade swiss watch, just far more complicated. Compared the the digital bludgeon of the RedOne it's a masterpiece of optical and mechanical engineering. One look at their shutter and optical viewfinder assemblies should quiet the disbelievers.
But as the song goes, 'the times, they are a changin'. We work in an era when we will very likely see an end to the use of film in our profession for all but the most specialized of productions, so the days of these beautiful mechanical cameras is surely numbered. Some of are saddened by this as much as the prospect of an improved all digital workflow excites us.
But the simple fact: The RedOne has issues.
Many of us recognize these issues and work with or around them because we are consciously making a personal investment in a technology we believe in.
Arri is a company with 90 years of history and more than 1200 employees worldwide. Arri has produced countless camera models throughout it's history and earned an astonishing 13 Technical Achievement Awards from the Academy.
The R1 is the first camera produced by a very new, very small company. The camera itself is an amazing accomplishment, and for a 1st camera they have every right to be exceedingly proud of what they have accomplished. They have pulled of an amazing David over Goliath coup in an industry dominated by giants like Arri and are also deserving of respect and admiration for that accomplishment.
I myself enjoy working with the camera. It's well suited to a lot of what I do, but not so suited to some things. This is the case with all camera systems. Horses for courses.
Herzog had a different R1 experience. He has a right to his opinion.
Given his history, he deserves better than to be bad mouthed by people who don't deserve to shine his shoes. This is a small industry and people should exercise a bit more civility when they comment on others so well respected in the profession.
Rant over
I can't believe the gall of some users here, insulting a greatly respected DGA member. A man who is both highly influential, and arguably one of filmmaking's modern day living legends. He's directed over 50 films and written nearly that number for f*&% sake.
This is one of the things that makes me want to not log into RedUser some days, a bunch of industry newcommers and wanna be's bad mouthing icons of our profession.
Herzog is a man of great dedication, passion and impeccable integrity.
To me it's not only myopic to insult a man of his standing and accomplishment, but foolish. There are many who silently agree with many of the points Werner made but quietly reveal their concerns in private with those who can do something about it. While he could have been more diplomatic, that's not his style and Werner has always been a forthright if not downright blunt character (to his credit). He was asked a forthright question and he gave an honest answer that reflected his personal experience.
Given Werner's contributions to the profession and his lifetime of passionate work, he deserves a little more respect than he got here on Reduser.
How about we take a break from the kool-aid teat for a couple minutes and regain some perspective?
While frustration may have colored Herzog's experience and comments, people accustomed to working with high precision camera systems like Panavision, Aaton and Arri largely feel the R1 lacks the beautiful precision of those camera systems. This is no secret.
A brand new Arricam Lite costs upwards of $200,000 fitted out, not $17000, there are going to be quality differences, get over it. You have to acknowledge this or you're simply not being honest.
I grew up with those camera systems and I am the first one to agree that the Arri cameras are simply stunning in terms of their precision. I love using them, the ergonomics are fantastic and they are simply fun to use. Like driving a brand new 911.
We're talking about insanely obsessive German craftsmanship. A modern Arri camera is like a finely crafted handmade swiss watch, just far more complicated. Compared the the digital bludgeon of the RedOne it's a masterpiece of optical and mechanical engineering. One look at their shutter and optical viewfinder assemblies should quiet the disbelievers.
But as the song goes, 'the times, they are a changin'. We work in an era when we will very likely see an end to the use of film in our profession for all but the most specialized of productions, so the days of these beautiful mechanical cameras is surely numbered. Some of are saddened by this as much as the prospect of an improved all digital workflow excites us.
But the simple fact: The RedOne has issues.
Many of us recognize these issues and work with or around them because we are consciously making a personal investment in a technology we believe in.
Arri is a company with 90 years of history and more than 1200 employees worldwide. Arri has produced countless camera models throughout it's history and earned an astonishing 13 Technical Achievement Awards from the Academy.
The R1 is the first camera produced by a very new, very small company. The camera itself is an amazing accomplishment, and for a 1st camera they have every right to be exceedingly proud of what they have accomplished. They have pulled of an amazing David over Goliath coup in an industry dominated by giants like Arri and are also deserving of respect and admiration for that accomplishment.
I myself enjoy working with the camera. It's well suited to a lot of what I do, but not so suited to some things. This is the case with all camera systems. Horses for courses.
Herzog had a different R1 experience. He has a right to his opinion.
Given his history, he deserves better than to be bad mouthed by people who don't deserve to shine his shoes. This is a small industry and people should exercise a bit more civility when they comment on others so well respected in the profession.
Rant over
Sanjin Jukic
Well-known member
- Joined
- Dec 28, 2006
- Messages
- 8,929
- Reaction score
- 1
- Points
- 36
- Location
- Vienna, Austria
- Website
- www.sanjinjukic.com
Hi JonathanF,
RED doesn't make you more issues than any other digital acquisition camera system if you know how to use it...
You can't compare for example use of a film camera with any digital camera because there are totally different acquisition formats, workflows, areas or fields..whatever...
Just because no any today's movie director actually can say anything more than to ask directly to contact ME what he/she would need to get from RED1 cine digital acquisition system...full stop.
Also of course that I'm available for consulting and you can find that contact below in the signature.
JonathanF
Well-known member
Sanjin,
I'm short on sleep today so I'm not in a very sporting mood, I'll beg forgiveness later but I'm not in that mindset presently so I'm going to disregard my own advice on civility.
It should be a strong warning to a manufacturer when users are consciously not using advertised features of a camera because the use of such features increases their product's instability.
Burn rate on many feature films is measured in tens of thousands of dollars per hour. Time is money. When a production loses time a Director has to start making compromises to stay on schedule or go over budget.
Werner does not deliver films over budget. This is a point of near obsession for him. Because of that ANY technical issue with a camera system is a big problem.
I have worked with numerous digital acquisition systems that do not exhibit this behavior. Granted, they did not cost $17k. Your comparison of digital to film is not relevant. The issue here is stability of use with an advertised featureset.
I hate to use my resume as a bludgeon but I've been making major motion pictures for 17 years and have nearly that number under my belt. I have used numerous camera systems (both film and digital) and the Red, despite my love for it, is not the most stable in the bunch.
J
Ian Laurie
Well-known member
- Joined
- Apr 6, 2008
- Messages
- 526
- Reaction score
- 0
- Points
- 16
Sanjin, your last sentence was probably some of the worst grammar I have had the pleasure of trying to decipher...hahaha I have no idea what you said.
As for Mr. Herzog... Although he may be a great and brilliant director, that does not mean he is always right. I may be a new comer, but that does not make my view point less valid. He may be old school but that doesn't mean he is infallible. Overall a disasterous thread with people over reacting on both sides of the arguement. Much like Mr. Herzog's 4 1/2 minute remark, a bit of over statement for one mans opinion. Afterall, though he may have more experience than me as a whole, I may have more experience than him with the Red. So does that make my opinion on the Red MORE valid than his?
hmy:
To be honest I really don't give a crap what anyone else thinks. I like it. The films that I have worked on with it love it.
now you may proceed to ridicule me and say that i have delusions of grandeur ( I prefer to think of them as goals), but before you do, keep in mind that I am not comparing talent, I am simply implying that my experience with ONE camera may be more valid than his experience with the SAME camera.
Let the verbal abuse begin!
As for Mr. Herzog... Although he may be a great and brilliant director, that does not mean he is always right. I may be a new comer, but that does not make my view point less valid. He may be old school but that doesn't mean he is infallible. Overall a disasterous thread with people over reacting on both sides of the arguement. Much like Mr. Herzog's 4 1/2 minute remark, a bit of over statement for one mans opinion. Afterall, though he may have more experience than me as a whole, I may have more experience than him with the Red. So does that make my opinion on the Red MORE valid than his?
hmy:To be honest I really don't give a crap what anyone else thinks. I like it. The films that I have worked on with it love it.
now you may proceed to ridicule me and say that i have delusions of grandeur ( I prefer to think of them as goals), but before you do, keep in mind that I am not comparing talent, I am simply implying that my experience with ONE camera may be more valid than his experience with the SAME camera.
Let the verbal abuse begin!
Sanjin Jukic
Well-known member
- Joined
- Dec 28, 2006
- Messages
- 8,929
- Reaction score
- 1
- Points
- 36
- Location
- Vienna, Austria
- Website
- www.sanjinjukic.com
Ian,
thanks for your comment but I'm mostly drunk when writing to the forum and
that it would consists a sort of grammar error nonsense that also I like so much.
But don't forget that I'm thinking ALWAYS pretty good...in a way that has no any mistakes with idea(s)....
Also nobodys's perfect.
Ian Laurie
Well-known member
- Joined
- Apr 6, 2008
- Messages
- 526
- Reaction score
- 0
- Points
- 16
Hahahaha no offence meant, Sanjin, I just thought it was funny that you very clearly had something to say, but I have no idea what it was. Almost like being talked at in a foreign language. thought this was relevant to the current convo though:
"Q: You're not a major fan of technology, but what impact do you think new media is ultimately going to have on traditional filmmaking? "
In my experience so far, if you don't love tech, The Red is going to kill you. Maybe this explains Werner's Frustration.
"Q: You're not a major fan of technology, but what impact do you think new media is ultimately going to have on traditional filmmaking? "
In my experience so far, if you don't love tech, The Red is going to kill you. Maybe this explains Werner's Frustration.
peter roehsler
Well-known member
- Joined
- Dec 29, 2006
- Messages
- 328
- Reaction score
- 0
- Points
- 16
In the interview Mr. Herzog stated that he does not own a cellphone. Could it be that he is slightly biased in regard to certain new technologies?
But seriously: as said before, he has contributed his share to cinematic art and he is entitled to his opinion. While camera downtime has obviously pissed him off, there must have been some decision for using RED cameras in the preparation of his shoot. I very much doubt that he was forced to use this camera, the way he seems to be in control of his work. So there must have been something he liked.
Why the the rental house or the 1st AC on the shoot did not provide a solution for this particular problem in prep work or at least after the first time it had bothered the director, remains a mystery to me.
But seriously: as said before, he has contributed his share to cinematic art and he is entitled to his opinion. While camera downtime has obviously pissed him off, there must have been some decision for using RED cameras in the preparation of his shoot. I very much doubt that he was forced to use this camera, the way he seems to be in control of his work. So there must have been something he liked.
Why the the rental house or the 1st AC on the shoot did not provide a solution for this particular problem in prep work or at least after the first time it had bothered the director, remains a mystery to me.
Sanjin Jukic
Well-known member
- Joined
- Dec 28, 2006
- Messages
- 8,929
- Reaction score
- 1
- Points
- 36
- Location
- Vienna, Austria
- Website
- www.sanjinjukic.com
Ian,
I do not say any complicated things at all and anyway
it could be understandable by the content that is involved around it...
Also you can't say that you can understand Shakespeare always...
... then is more about translating English into predicate logic...
...as more common user-speaker do it daily... it's a pity...
I do not say any complicated things at all and anyway
it could be understandable by the content that is involved around it...
Also you can't say that you can understand Shakespeare always...
... then is more about translating English into predicate logic...
...as more common user-speaker do it daily... it's a pity...
Stephen Williams
Well-known member
Cameras do vary, this is an issue.
Sanjin Jukic
Well-known member
- Joined
- Dec 28, 2006
- Messages
- 8,929
- Reaction score
- 1
- Points
- 36
- Location
- Vienna, Austria
- Website
- www.sanjinjukic.com
Peter,
if you are in Vienna/Wien right now you should finally pass my "lodge" or "kitchen" tomorrow as you've said it before...
Meryem Ersoz
Well-known member
What Anson said...
Besides, I can relate to the 4-1/2 minute boot time. One of my two cameras, when it is running hot, takes a heckuva lot longer to boot than that. The other one is solid, usually no issues. Who knows what kind of camera he used? The RED ONE hasn't been perfectly consistent. The trade-off of having it right now, right away, has been managing these inconsistencies in return for the camera's ongoing enhancements and pretty, pretty pictures. We deal with that. So what if Herzog isn't interested in new technologies? He doesn't actually need them, to get his pictures made.
The guy is a freaking genius. Freaking. genius. He is a giant.
The cool thing about JJ, unlike the rest of us - when he gets this kind of feedback from guys of Herzog's stature - he doesn't complain, he just builds a better camera, shoots us free firmware upgrades, listens and takes it all in, etc., etc.
I, for one, am glad that he feels challenged, instead of petty or mad.
- Status