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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Wearable directional mic on talent, for picking up other people

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soren k jensen

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I use lavs (DPA 4071 mostly) for docs, on the talent. Have any of you tried to mount an additional, directional mic on the talent, facing the people he/she is interacting with? Often I cannot mic up everyone, or we fly under the radar. I would like to use the main talent as a sort of remote, wireless boom operator, if possible. Hmmm, experiment....
 
Interesting idea.
 
A real boom operator is probably a better option. You can't always guarantee that the interviewer or the interviewee are going to be standing in the right place at the right time. But I have had situations where the sound editor has opted to take the other person's microphone when both are wired, for reasons of level, clothing noise, or other issues. It can work under some conditions.

My advice would be to have the person hold a standard interview microphone, like an ElectroVoice RE50, which has been used for interviews in the U.S. for about 40 years, and point it at the other person when they speak. It's still used today by thousands of American TV stations. (There's also a newer version of the RE50 that has higher output and a better high-end response, for about $50 more.) Great mike, solid as a rock. It's old-school, but it's 100% reliable and very affordable.
 
Marc, I use a boom whenever possible: MKH416, DPA417..., but I am talking docs, under the radar etc. Different kettle of fish.. :-)
 
Documentaries are too unpredictable. Again, you can't guarantee that the interview subject is going to be on the correct side of the person wearing the microphone. You could put two mikes on them, but at some point, it becomes ridiculous.

You say "under the radar"... it seems to me that the camera is going to give you away far faster than the microphone. At worst, you could use a handheld shotgun mike in a pistol grip (not a boom), and run it at waist level. I've done this before under certain conditions.

Beyond that, put a 416 on the top of the camera, put a wireless lav on the interviewer, record in 2-track, and use whichever sounds best. It'll be a compromise, but I think it's more practical than what you suggest. Bear in mind that a lav is only intended to capture sound from about 2 feet away.
 
stereo mic

stereo mic

what about a small stereo lapel mic - that way if the interviewer is standing in a direction away from the interviewee you can still hear them on the other channel - allowing for more control in post. I dont know much about mic products, but surely the theory is there. Anyone know any small stereo lapel mics?


p.s. - great idea - just watched the burma VJ doc and am helping on a new doc with 'sensitive' situations. this may be a great help. let me know if you find a good solution.
 
Hello Soren

Interesting Idea. I have not tried this approach, but if I did I would us a super-cardioid Sennheiser ME 105 with a right angle cable. You could run the cable behind the lapel and have the microphone sticking out through the lapel button hole pointing at the "other" person.
The ME 105 is the most directional lapel mic I have used and it works great. The main issue the "interviewer" would need to be careful about is not "stepping on the other person" by speaking at the same time. even though the interviewer will be in the null part of the pickup pattern they will still be quite present in any audio from the mic. The ME 105 has quite a good reach and might be worth checking out.
http://www.sennheiser.com/sennheiser/home_en.nsf/root/professional_wireless-microphone-systems_lavalier-mics-me-105-ni
 
I don't know what the laws are in Denmark, but in the US in many states it's illegal to audio record someone without their knowledge.
 
I don't know what the laws are in Denmark, but in the US in many states it's illegal to audio record someone without their knowledge.
Click to expand...

Same Laws in the USA, when shooting an interview with a camera usually the person has a pretty good idea they are being filmed.
In addition we normally get an "on camera" release from the person in addition to the written one.

I guess I assumed that you where trying to keep the interview quick, not having to wire some one up an not have the high profile and distraction of a boom for man on a street location where you may or may not have filming permit. (People who are not actors seam to always want to look at the boom and a boom draws more of a crowd then a small camera like an Epic.)

Anyway good luck, follow the law and do not get your self in trouble and be an ethical film maker.

If you want to do hidden cam stuff without getting releases from subjects after recording them. My advise is get a lawyer and find out what you can and what you cannot do.
 
Just for the record: when we film, people know. Actually there is almost always release forms involved as we mostly film kids and young people. It is for practical and psychological reasons: when I shoot docs with kids it is often both impractical, impossible or psychologically wrong to either wire them all up (try that in a school yard or at a party) or to bring a boom guy. Just too messy. By shooting alone I have managed to keep the trust and intimacy with my subjects and get very, very special results. So I try to work with the situation but to get as good audio as possible. Normally I use wireless lavs (Zaxcom and DPA4071) and an on-camera mkh416. Plus sometimes wireless mics that I move around. I tend to prefer the mkh416 when ever I can get close enough, but you gotta use what works. That is why I am experimenting with a small movable boom pole on the camera and directional lavs on the talent.
-Not now though, in bed with the Flu, yikes. Just bored enough to write on Reduser ;-)
Thanks for all the replies, Soren
 
Note that directional lavs tend to be very sensitive to wind noise and clothing noise. They would never be my first choice for outdoor situations. I have a couple of Countryman B2D's (kind of an unusual microphone), and while they can deliver good indoor results under noisy conditions, they won't work for the original situation posed in this thread.

Shooting without permits is very risky in some areas, especially large cities. (I would also add shooting without insurance, which tends to go along with shooting without permits.)
 
Tram TR50's are more sensitive to background noise/ambience than any other lav mike that I know of, and we use those in our own work when we are trying to pick up as much audio as possible and use the person who is miked as a sort of roving audio recorder, it works really well. Whenever I use the Tram I always feel like it barely matters which directions it's pointed because it seems to pick up everything really well. But it's not a directional thing like what you requested in your original post.

More precisely: we have other lav mikes we use when we want a real clean recording of someones voice, and we have the Trams for when we want to pick up the person they are talking to, or facing, or simply record as much as possible that is not the person miked.
 
zak forrest said:
Tram TR50's are more sensitive to background noise/ambience than any other lav mike that I know of, and we use those in our own work when we are trying to pick up as much audio as possible and use the person who is miked as a sort of roving audio recorder, it works really well. Whenever I use the Tram I always feel like it barely matters which directions it's pointed because it seems to pick up everything really well. But it's not a directional thing like what you requested in your original post.

More precisely: we have other lav mikes we use when we want a real clean recording of someones voice, and we have the Trams for when we want to pick up the person they are talking to, or facing, or simply record as much as possible that is not the person miked.
Click to expand...

+1

I was about to suggest this also. Tram's take care of this problem 100%. This solution was suggested to me by a veteran sound man that I worked with.
 
My lavs have always been omnis. The body shields the mic from 180 degrees of noise and they pick up anyone within conversational distances very well.

A directional lav is designed to be a personal microphone. It seems counter intuitive and problematic to try and use it to do what it was specifically designed NOT to do... No?
 
Tramalama

Tramalama

Thanks for the advice. I will try to get a Tram and try it out. They are not that common here in Denmark.
 
In Denmark, I would look at DPA mikes, since they're actually made in your beautiful country. More costly than Trams, but a fine lavaliere microphone, highly-regarded by quite a few major sound mixers.

Many, many, many omni microphones are used as lavs all the time. For example, a great deal of the Oscar-winning film The King's Speech was shot with Tram lavs. The results largely depend on how they're used, where they're placed, and how the location sounds.
 
It's occasionally done (by Production Mixers, not camera operators). I heard it was done on a skateboard move a few years ago because the talent wouldn't be wired. It was also done on a Nicole Kidman film a few years ago because she also wouldn't be wired. It amazes me that somehow it's okay that people can get away with this. Imagine if talent didn't want to be photographed...it would be a big deal.

In any case, I would leave it to your production mixer to worry about (unless you are the production mixer).
 
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