Weapon 8k Queue

[Jarred Land]

Well with this further confirmation that the wait isn't ending anytime soon, are we going to get details on the process of obtaining an 8K Helium replacement/loaner/alternative before the 11th? Are we VV Depositors immediately at the front of the line? Will there be an option through online ordering for us or will it have to be communicated exclusively/directly through our Bomb Squad reps?


I know the word was we'd be reached out to at the appropriate time, but it's now two days out and we have little to no details.


Further information/clarification would be much appreciated.

No you are not at the front of the line. The 11th isn't about you.

 

[Michael Dalton]

Don't poke at Panavision and make assumptions like that... as much as you guys all love to make and follow your own allocation lists you need to remember there is a much bigger list for dealers and rental houses and military and broadcast and a dozen other segments.

Panavision is one of our largest customers, and they ordered 8k VV sensors before pretty much all of you, back before the DXL even was a dream. They are being very friendly to you guys that have been getting VV sensors to allow you to jump ahead of them as we both finish the DXL, because if they wanted to, they could claim all those sensors they have on order by time stamp and obliterate all your make-believe lists into oblivion.

8K VV sensors take forever to make.. and most of you will continue to wait as I have said many times before. You can jump off that train any time you want to.

Thanks Jarred for the update.

Sorry it was a bad choice of words, if I can rephrase the question like this;

Given what we know from the recent announcements, and new information about Red's partners on Vista (listed in your response here and the Panavision news), is it possible for Red to give us an update, and let us know where we fit in for allocation? We recognize that you not always in a position to release this sort of information. It would be great to know if it's months or a year or two away. Any indication really goes a long way to help us plan, budget and promote our projects.

We know these lists mean little, and partners take priority! We're grateful to be a part of it, and don't want to get off.

What I would like is a warning button that says "have you re-read your post" and "does it say what you intended it to say!" That would be helpful.

 

[Stacey Spears]

What I would like is a warning button that says "have you re-read your post" and "does it say what you intended it to say!" That would be helpful.

There was an episode on the Simpsons last season called The Girl Code. Lisa helped develop Conrad, an app that would warn you before making a post that you would regret. Conrad would tell you all the consequences of your post.

 

[Jarred Land]

Thanks Jarred for the update.

Sorry it was a bad choice of words, if I can rephrase the question like this;

Given what we know from the recent announcements, and new information about Red's partners on Vista (listed in your response here and the Panavision news), is it possible for Red to give us an update, and let us know where we fit in for allocation? We recognize that you not always in a position to release this sort of information. It would be great to know if it's months or a year or two away. Any indication really goes a long way to help us plan, budget and promote our projects.

We know these lists mean little, and partners take priority! We're grateful to be a part of it, and don't want to get off.

What I would like is a warning button that says "have you re-read your post" and "does it say what you intended it to say!" That would be helpful.

Ha ha no worries man understood. And just to be clear partners don't actually take priority, nor does the number or how many cameras one buys. Time stamp is king. The exceptions to that are behavior based... for example Phil Holland who got his VV a bit early because he's given back to this community so much, for no compensation , that he deserved a token of appreciation from me ( and from all of you ) in the form of a jump. I'm sure you all can agree things like that are deserving.

 

[Nick Morrison]

That base ISO question is likely to further vex many as technology marches on. IMO, Signal to Noise ratio expressed in DB is a more useful comparison tool.

I don't want to get ahead of the train here, especially since a new image processing pipeline is at the proverbial door, but @3,200 ISO via the SDI tap looked kitchen clean on a 25" Sony A250 OLED. If you have an aversion to noise, you're going to LOVE Helium.

What excites me is the potential to work in synergy with existing light sources on location vs blowing them away with big lighting instruments. My analogy would be tent camping right in the wilderness vs parking your 32' RV nearby and looking out the window. Setting a mood, shaping a face, focusing attention where you desire, etc are all still important parts of visual storytelling. IMO, lighting is still the keystone of Cinematography. Moreover, I am not suggesting that lighting control with creative intention is any less important at 3,200 ISO. What I am looking forward to, is being able to play a space/location with more of it's existing atmospherics/dynamics intact.

Cheers - #19

Blaire, this is a great post - thanks for the insights! Kind of lines up with our findings from a Helium test we did at our studio two weeks ago.

In a nutshell (and I really want to DOUBLE CHECK our findings) at the SAME EXPOSURE...Weapon HELIUM at 800 ISO looks "the same" on a monitor as Weapon Dragon and Epic Dragon at 1600 ISO.

We didn't notice this on set right away - only later did I see it in the grading suite (next time we'll have Dragon and Helium cameras up on monitors at same time).

Helium DEFINITELY seems to respond to light differently. And appears to require LESS light than Dragon...for the same results.

It's absolutely a whole new ANIMAL.

I think what Toia said in his test was apt - in a regular studio environment (controlled, lots of light) - you won't notice the difference btw Dragon and Helium as much (outside of resolution and color upgrades).

But in lowlight?

For sure.

And I agree...being able to shoot REAL PLACES with REAL/PRACTICAL LIGHTING...could certainly add to the realism, and help with lighting budgets too.

 

[Michael Dalton]

Ha ha no worries man understood. And just to be clear partners don't actually take priority, nor does the number or how many cameras one buys. Time stamp is king. The exceptions to that are behavior based... for example Phil Holland who got his VV a bit early because he's given back to this community so much, for no compensation , that he deserved a token of appreciation from me ( and from all of you ) in the form of a jump. I'm sure you all can agree things like that are deserving.

Would definitely not fault you on that! Phil has be very giving with his time and knowledge. The Helium process was pretty open and fair, not to mention the offer to put heliums in for those in the queue here.

 

[Mark L. Pederson]

That base ISO question is likely to further vex many as technology marches on. IMO, Signal to Noise ratio expressed in DB is a more useful comparison tool.

I don't want to get ahead of the train here, especially since a new image processing pipeline is at the proverbial door, but @3,200 ISO via the SDI tap looked kitchen clean on a 25" Sony A250 OLED. If you have an aversion to noise, you're going to LOVE Helium.

What excites me is the potential to work in synergy with existing light sources on location vs blowing them away with big lighting instruments. My analogy would be tent camping right in the wilderness vs parking your 32' RV nearby and looking out the window. Setting a mood, shaping a face, focusing attention where you desire, etc are all still important parts of visual storytelling. IMO, lighting is still the keystone of Cinematography. Moreover, I am not suggesting that lighting control with creative intention is any less important at 3,200 ISO. What I am looking forward to, is being able to play a space/location with more of it's existing atmospherics/dynamics intact.

Cheers - #19

I'm a low ISO guy - I like to feed the sensor lots of light and I hate noise.

I tell folks - however they like to rate the Dragon - rate the Helium 1 stop up. So ... If you rate Dragon at 800 - you should rate Helium at 1600. Now that's a really general statement - as it depends what you are shooting and what you want to accomplish. For me - ISO 1280 is the go-to on Helium.

I have some ISO 3200 night exterior footage only lit with LED's on a drone - that I'm not allowed to post as it's for an NDA project - that is INSANE - and it clearly shows how 8K Helium will be killer for scripted television.

You should also note that the SDI output is 1/2 debayer - and not the exact same debayer method as the SDK post debayer. So ... When you look at the SDI output - you are not seeing ALL the detail extracted and scaled - so ... You CAN see more noise in SDI than you will get when you do a full debayer in post.

 

[Nick Morrison]

I tell folks - however they like to rate the Dragon - rate the Helium 1 stop up. So ... If you rate Dragon at 800 - you should rate Helium at 1600.

Thanks for sharing Mark. Makes me feel less crazy. 800 Dragon / 1600 Helium is what I realized afterwards from our test too.

 

[Mark L. Pederson]

Thanks for sharing Mark. Makes me feel less crazy. 800 Dragon / 1600 Helium is what I realized afterwards from our test too.

I tell folks that when you test a new sensor - you should do it like we use to test new film stocks. Get the whole "comparison" thing out of your head and just stress test it and find out when and how it breaks and when and how it sings based on your personal exposure method.

Use the exposure method that you use - and shoot bracketed exposure tests and analyze the results. You have to treat a new sensor like ... What it is. A new sensor. Sensitivity is just one aspect. And all the aspects add up to a unique result. You can "compare" all day long. But the best use of your time is to stress test the sensor with your exposure method - and find the best way to rate the camera to get the results you want.

 

[Stacey Spears]

Mark, which OLPF are you using in Helium?

 

[Mark L. Pederson]

Mark, which OLPF are you using in Helium?

Standard all day and every day.

I HATE the LLO. Huge compromise.

 

[Stacey Spears]

I know how you feel about the LLO. LOL (see what I did there ) I was curious if you would switch back to STH given the improved sensitivity. I prefer the standard OLPF myself.

 

[Mark L. Pederson]

I know how you feel about the LLO. LOL (see what I did there ) I was curious if you would switch back to STH given the improved sensitivity. I prefer the standard OLPF myself.

I (and any hardcore colorist you ask) finds more accurate colors and skin tines in Standard - even over STH. And Standard is sharper.

I HATE the naming conventions of RED's OLPFs. They should be called ... v1 (LLO), v2 (STH), v3 (Standard)

Of course V3 is better.

But yeah ... it is subjective. And my YUCK is someone else's YUM, etc etc. But you gotta TEST. Don't choose based on naming convention that should have never included something to imply "this one has the best skin tones" - because ... the reality is .... IMO ... Standard could be called the EBSTAS OLPF.

Even Better Skin Tones And Sharper

 

[Stacey Spears]

Thank you Mark. Shane's test does a really nice job on detailing the sharpness difference between Standard and STH in my opinion opinion.

 

[Antony Newman]

If STD.v3 is an integral part of the Dragon sensor colour processing workflow - and is somewhat heavy to bring the Dragon sensor to a better starting point - perhaps there will be a new Helium OLPF (ie optical color filter) in the works that 'does less'?

AJ

 

[John Marchant]

A point of note- the sharpness difference is not down to the colour science, its due to the optical construction and design. So for instance, the KipperTie OLPFs do not exhibit any sharpness issues or bokeh distortion, despite using the STH colour calibration. STH is still the most accurate and best at separating tones according to my data.

 

[Blair S. Paulsen]

(snip) You should also note that the SDI output is 1/2 debayer - and not the exact same debayer method as the SDK post debayer. So ... When you look at the SDI output - you are not seeing ALL the detail extracted and scaled - so ... You CAN see more noise in SDI than you will get when you do a full debayer in post.

I was careful to note that my impressions were based on the monitor tap, rather than a full R3D decode. Moreover, with a new image processing pipeline about to drop, I plan to re-test a number of image attributes using the new RGB reconstruction "chemistry" (sic) before forming an opinion about reference ISO settings with Helium.

What I wanted to share with other RedUsers was my enthusiasm over what is clearly a much lower noise floor than I've ever experienced with Dragon.

Agree that sensors, and perhaps more accurately - sensor/OLPF combos - are best evaluated like various film stocks used to be. Interesting to think about going on set with two digital "backs" like we used to do in film/stills days. I'd even be curious what might be possible with stronger dyes in the color filter array to better isolate colors creating a deliberately low ISO "stock" that would be biased for shooting bright scenes. As a side benefit, such a sensor/OLPF combo might allow shooting exteriors without ND filters/mattebox - particularly handy for action sports/nature/etc.

Cheers - #19

 

[Jake Wilganowski]

Wait I thought live sdi was full debayer and playback was 1/2?!

 

[Blair S. Paulsen]

Wait I thought live sdi was full debayer and playback was 1/2?!

AFAIK, 1/2 debayer is the max in camera decode to RGB SDI.

Cheers - #19

 

[Mark L. Pederson]

Wait I thought live sdi was full debayer and playback was 1/2?!

Yeah - I am sorry - it would be more accurate to say that LIVE SDI was "full" and playback was "1/2" - but the debayer on SDI, last time I compared live to SDK .... it's a tiny bit different and I assume it's optimized for live 1080.

So ... my point is ... the LIVE SDI is not 100% all of the detail scaled the way you can do it in post with the SDK - and you can, many times, see more noise on the SDI than you get in final, rendered R3D w/full debayer.

I'll post some examples - but bottom line - it will look BETTER when you do full debayer from SDK software than the love SDI.