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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

We will always tell you the truth about our development.

Laguun,

Part of this "open development" is that Jim is making a leap of faith that we will all be smart enough, and not so self-centered, as to see the "big picture" instead of focusing on just our own needs.

You are writing harsh, demanding letters about RED's lack of progress in post when you fail to acknowlege Three very basic facts:

1: The camera is still FAR from finished. No completed firmware, no EVF, no REDDrive, and a host of other options NOT EVEN AVAILABLE YET.
2: REDCine v1 is not even finished yet. You're bitching about a complete post workflow in a number of different systems before RED has even managed to get their first software package to market yet.
3: Last I heard, the entire RED team was comprised of 25 people.

So...You kind of remind me of a man sitting in a car complaining that there is no GPS inside so you will never find your destination. Problem is that you have not bothered to notice that there are also no wheels.. So the GPS does not matter that much right now.

Like it or not, you will have to be patient. Your shouting at the rain is not going to do anyone any good until RED catches up. Don't expect that until year's end at best in my opinion. If you hate it that much, return the camera and go back to DVCProHD.

Sorry if this letter is harsh, but you are fighting a losing battle here. You CAN work with the footage, just not real-time. Some color system had to be first out of the gate, and it was Assimilate. Good for them, bad for you. Had it been a system you liked, then you would be happy and others pissed.. That's how things work sometimes. Oh well. I am sure others will get RED support, and I am sure RED will get the rest of their parts to market, but it won't be today. Be patient. Or complain.. Either way things will move at the same speed.

Good luck to you sir!

Jay
 
This is a silly thread. We know exactly what we're doing with workflow, and yes, I know, all the pieces of the puzzle are not publically in place yet, but that doesn't mean anything. What I mentioned about us being busy is true - we're busy on all fronts, and I don't have to iterate them for you to know how many fronts there are.

And because we're talking here about workflow, that means 3rd parties are necessarily involved. We're certainly not going to talk about that sort of private stuff on a public forum, just as if you speak to us privately, we don't go talking about that on a public forum. When we're ready to announce stuff, we will.

Graeme
 
I'm just going to reply to laguuns comments about Discreet workflow. Discreet works only in it's uncompressed format. There is no way in the near future you will see multi codecs supported by them. This has nothing to do with Red. They don't support ANY codec out there right now. It's all uncompressed.

Getting Red footage to a format that can be used in any Discreet workflow is no more difficult (actually LESS difficult) then using HVX-P2 source material. Conform and export DPX sequences.

This process with exporting DPX is simpler and faster than our current process of aquiring 35mm source material. I just don't get what you are so worked up about. I see your points but you are exaggerating and twisting the reality of the situation...or you just don't fully comprehend it.

The platforms you mentioned are all the same as the ones I have to deal with. But rather than be frustrated I am quite excited because I see the glass half full I guess.
 
We intend to support as many platforms as possible in due time. We do not have the resources in place to accomplish everything at once. We also don't have control of the other companies policies.

RED Alert! is OSX only. REDCINE is OSX and Windows. There is growing Apple support to native. DPX files can be generated for Quantel, Baselight, etc. Discussions are ongoing with several other companies.

Jim
 
laboprod said:
I don't understand why Laguun stated that REDCINE won't support Cineform?

RED has always stated that you could export to any codec install on your computer including .avi, isn't it?
Click to expand...

I think he was talking about Cineform RAW instead of Cineform 444. This would keep all of the meta data intact.
 
Guys, just be patient ! I can´t wait to get my Red stuff also, but I´m also kind of happy to receive my Red One somewhere in spring next year, were hopefully, all this will be in place. It´s with everey product in such an early stage, things are still in development...
 
I'm not commenting one way or the other, but just wanted to say that I think I understand Lagoon's frustration. I had a long conversation with a local post house about this same issue. I'm not sure where the information is coming from, but they were making comments (repeating rumors?) that Apple is trying to monopolize the RED post workflow.

I quickly put this to bed with the mention of Scratch, and RedCine for windows.

They realize RED will find its way into their shop, and they are trying to prepare to ensure they are marketable to their customers. As an Avid/Lustre shop, the only option they see is time consuming, and resource draining exports to a variety of file formats, and cross conversions. They aren't happy about it. Ultimately, they are eager to get their hands on a RED to figure out the truth.

The point is, there is (mis?)information spreading that RED will only support a handful of systems, with those vendors vying for exclusive deals to monopolize the RED post environment. It might be helpful for RED to work with those other 3rd-parties towards some kind of basic (even sparse) press release so there is quantifiable evidence to the contrary.

I'm not demanding, or anything of that ilk. But, as a reservation holder, it would make me and my camera more marketable if I could definitively address some of these concerns to potential customers.
 
Well as a reservation holders, you should do your full research first before you decide to put in money. It almost sounds to me that you don't know what you buy. You should clearly know what can't and can and what would change soon.

I guess RED Team has answer this thread already. But i do agree that Red should understand some of the frustration and not taking it too hard. It's a good sign, because the customers care about this. Just look at the positive way
 
It almost sounds to me that you don't know what you buy.
Click to expand...
(I'm not try to fan the flames here but...) you don't know what you're buying when there hasn't been a lot of details on Redcine. If I were in laguun's position, I definitely would not want to buy something that is not as advertised / does not work / the workflow is too tedious.

That being said, I'd expect the Red team to release details when they are ready. So one should wait a little bit. Or if you're not satisfied, then get your deposit back.

2- Laguun... no need to be inflammatory. :)
 
Jones said:
Guys, just be patient ! I can´t wait to get my Red stuff also, but I´m also kind of happy to receive my Red One somewhere in spring next year, were hopefully, all this will be in place. It´s with everey product in such an early stage, things are still in development...
Click to expand...
yeah yeah.. YOU should be patient.. WHO has his/her/their/our own money since a year and a half ago shouldn't have your patience.. is it clear?..

we're waiting for our machines during 2007.. working from acquisition to the master.. including post production sure!

end of story.
 
laguun said:
none of these format ever sabotaged maunfacturers.
red, it seems so, does. as did dvxpro HD.

this includes, after some phone talks over the weekend:

avid
iridas
adobe
discreet
dvs.
quantel
Click to expand...

Jan/Laguun,

I am not sure who you called, but you did not call me. Yes, it is a fact that RED currently only gives direct R3D support to Apple and Assimilate, while their workflow is still evolving. While I sure do not like it, I can live with it without a problem, because their Quicktime wrapper gives us a great 2K workflow in SpeedGrade on Mac OS X.

Here is the document that describes it : http://www.iridas.com/support/techtips/IRIDAS_UsingRedCodeRAW.pdf

Because of a limitation on our side (8 bit pipeline for Quicktime codecs that we do not decode natively), this is of limited precision. We will change that very shortly. It is not 4K right now - but ask yourself if 4K is going to be your daily work.

In the meantime: Take a step back and look at RED's current status - with RedCine not finalized and the Codec still evolving, firmware in beta etc... I think it is quite understandable that they are not bringing in more beta RedCode SDK users at the moment. Right now they have to deal with two partners when making a change - I am not sure you'd want to do it with 10 partners right from the start.

I can tell you that Graeme Nattress is a very nice and responsive person who has told us all we need to know to optimize the Quicktime quality.

We have been working with a lot of camera manufacturers lately (Silicon Imaging, Phantom, Weisscam, ARRI... and a few others): Things look much easier from the outside than if you actually have to work out all the little details.

I had a good conversation with Ted at IBC and I can assure you that things are moving forward. The pace depends on RED and their development progress. (So keep on bugging them of course, but be nice :) )

A few other notes:

Rivai - you are saying that SpeedGrade on the Mac is not viable because of the lack of SDI out. It is true that SDI out is missing from the Apple NVIDIA driver for reasons only Apple understands.

Since we use the GPU for grading, we can't use another SDI card for real time monitoring. However: As a few dozen SpeedGrade HD users on the Mac can probably confirm: It's quite possible to use SpeedGrade on a single or dual DVI display. You can calibrate your display to REC 709 and have a good working solution. 8 bits is frankly a non-issue for monitoring (all our processing is in float) and if you are super critical, you can use dithering in SpeedGrade to increase the color fidelity. You can also use the Matrox MXO, which will translate 8 bit DVI to HD-SDI - not perfect, but a solution people are using in the field today.

Generally: If you are looking for a color correction or playback solution - make sure you take the time to actually try different solutions out in your workflow. Every company (including mine) will tell you they have the ideal solution for you, but in the end it boils down to you trying it out on a short project.

I am happy to answer any questions - our contact info is on our website (http://www.iridas.com/company/contact.html) - and my email is lin [at] iridas.com.

Cheers,
Lin
 
Obviously Post Workflow is behind the Red curve at this time. But since much of the NLE development pathway is software based, it will catch up rapidly after a suficient number of installed Red users are generating footage. It seems to me that Avid, Adobe and some of the companies with similar marketshare will adapt early next year or risk losing their piece of the Red pie altogether. The future is a bright Red Apple, and everyone gets to take a bite.
 
Frankly I'd be happy if there was only a Mac based workflow. In relative terms to the camera and other related gear, a FCP workstation is practically nothing.

Then again my license plate used to say "MACNTSH", so I may be a bit biased.
 
Why talk about post work flow when we've only just entered pre-release mode? 1 year of waiting and people are pissing themselves already.....get real guys. I'm here for a camera thats gonna knock the crap out of the competition and given the images we've seen so far from early recipients it shows that that seems to be a very real possibility. Because it doesn't (yet) conform to one's preferred work flow is no reason to slate it. Give it time and it will become what you wish. We are all a bit expectant but after a year of waiting, please don't spoil the party now, we've come too far.

Go Jim and RED Crew,
Cheers,
Mark.
 
Lin, you can check with patrick. I sent him my opinion for Speedgrade for Mac during demo last time. The things that i pointed out up there is just one of it. There're still some other things, why it doesn't suit us in the workflow, we have long issue on EDL conform. If i later we decide to use speedgrade, it will be on XP platform and not Mac.

Anyway, 8 bit monitoring and calibrating out from 2nd display unit doesn't work for us. We got different looks in kine, not really far off, but it's not really what we're seeing.
 
jeremyn said:
Frankly I'd be happy if there was only a Mac based workflow.
Click to expand...
why?.. do you mac guys have fear of the competition?.. or sorrow?.. any potential regret? :)
 
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