We will always tell you the truth about our development.

[laguun]

JJ: "We will always tell you the truth about our development."

We have no online solution on OSX: 2k FCP and no 4k online - besides iridas speedgrade, which does the job and red doesn´t support them.
precise: speedgrade OSX is there, and red blocks them.

we have no editing on windows, not even one application announced for native redcode support. but we have a 2k display not realtime display, 1k realtime on windows: scratch.
ok, one might ask: but why don´t they use 4k realtime as a clipster.
politics. hidden strategy it seems.
JJ: "We will always tell you the truth about our development."

so.
the postproduction workflow for feature films with red is:
finish offline (on osx), use scratch (at 1k realtime).
the best one can get.
the red workflow.


wont happen here.
and with any of the ~20 owners of inferno/lustre, pablo/iQ, etc.
in berlin, that is. maybe londons owners or paris executives will gladly reduce their postpro toolkit.





imho:lousy.
i have and i am a strong defender of reds camera and optics, since day ~50.
the unprofessional and vague communications from red towards the majority of buyers -and- possible users has to be resolved, imho.

after defending red for weeks, i will meanwhile answer the phone and tell:
red has no 4k editing.
they are not interested in supporting 4k editing (as dvs clipster etc)
they -seem- to prefer 2k yuv editing and have a small partner for DI.

no, you cant use your avid (ds. media composer)
no, they don´t want to support discreet, flame, smoke or lustre. you will want to be the first berlin basing customer for the 50.000 euro scratch. no one has it, no one needs it, but you have to buy it for this fullfaeture, because the red is...


no, adobe (after effects, photoshop etc) isn´t native and won´t be. 4k is irrrelevant, they have a backdoor agreement with the competion.
forget your baselights, quantels, davinicis, pablos.
no, it won´t work in any of your systems.
no, red isn´t interested in any of the marketleaders. if you want to rent our cameras, you will need to follow them.
no competition.


exactly the opposite of what they tell you.


you will buy scratch and fcp. drop the $$$.$$$ on your years or decade long business with discreet, avid, adobe, sony, quantel. thats what red is proposing for post.

i would prefer to be silenced by any announcement.
If not, well, i will have many reasons to recommend sony over red.
sad.

 

[SalaTar]

This would be the "straw that broke the camels back" thread?

 

[Chris Kenny]

Most camera vendors don't do anything about post workflow at all. They put their products on the market and let NLE vendors figure it out. How many NLE environments still, to this day, don't support DVCPRO HD natively?

Red has been shipping cameras for slightly over a month. They've already released a QuickTime codec for the camera, and a RAW processing app for people with DPX or TIFF-based workflows. We know they're working on a more feature-rich RAW conversion tool, a more flexible QuickTime component, and better integration with Final Cut Pro.

Red is doing pretty well here.

 

[Roberto B]

hey jan.. why not use cineform?..

 

[laguun]

Most camera vendors don't do anything about post workflow at all. They put their products on the market and let NLE vendors figure it out. How many NLE environments still, to this day, don't support DVCPRO HD natively?

Red has been shipping cameras for slightly over a month. They've already released a QuickTime codec for the camera, and a RAW processing app for people with DPX or TIFF-based workflows. We know they're working on a more feature-rich RAW conversion tool, a more flexible QuickTime component, and better integration with Final Cut Pro.

Red is doing pretty well here.

hey chris. besides dvcpro hd - which also was one of the few camera systems being betting on one post, i have in house the following video systems
- betacam sp
- digital betacam
- hdcam
- and red uprising.

all these formats are ingested in realtime to any postproduction system.
red isn´t.

all of these formats from the japanese beheomts are really easy to exchange and to explain.
red isn´t.

none of these format ever sabotaged maunfacturers.
red, it seems so, does. as did dvxpro HD.

this includes, after some phone talks over the weekend:

avid
iridas
adobe
discreet
dvs.
quantel

my job is to promote the red camera in this city.
they don´t -WANT- a good workflow is the rumor.
they don´t -ALLOW- 3hrd parties to support their codec-

therefore, i have a huge, and this time for good reason, scepisism in berlin to overcome.

thats not clever (to say the least=, takes rightfully the "rebel" image away from red and also adds 24 TByte of storage in my house.

However i doubt that several artists who would want to use red for their movies will follow the 2k yuv route. And i wont explain to DoPs here why they will have to pay a premium on post because there is no one here who use a redcode supporting system.

forget:
babelsberg (v for vendetta, they use poogle)
studio berlin (they have davinci)
postfactory (clipster)
das werk (duel, enemy at the gates, they use mystika)
us
cineplus (inferno and ds nitris and iq)
geyer (discreet lustre)

we all are incompatible to red - as, and thats sad, it seems they don´t want to support avid, iridas, discreet etc.

btw: there isn´t -one- 5d cyborg or assimilate scratch in town i am aware of.
and after the, lets say, a littble bit unproffessional proposals of luci on this forum, i certainly won´t proclaim the system within the next 4 months.

i am -disappointed-.
red is killing their own momentum here.
happens often, if the competition can´t challenge you, simply get to arrogant.

btw, how do you plan to finish 4k fullfeaturer, chris?
it would be as easy as fcp->speegrade for osx.
or cineform ppro->whatever di on win.

after the testshots last week - with all the issues - i had the reality check in post.
postproducing a fullfeature with redalert is somewhat more complicated than it could -and should- be.
blocking of the huge mayority of DI isn´t a clever decision for red.

and, to be honest, for 50.000 i will rather buy another 3 reds than one soon to be a Apple color competition DI system.

 

[laguun]

hey jan.. why not use cineform?..

because cineform isn´t supported by red. as of yet.

it will be done, but i, and sorry to be tough there, is totaslly silly that they don´t have the recine beta or redalert or the whatever utmost and best support of red.

it seems they have the opposite.

but cineform will hopefully fill in the gap which red intentionally leaves: a 4k one OS postproduction workflow.

 

[Roberto B]

However i doubt that several artists who would want to use red for their movies will follow the 2k yuv route.

again.. why not 4k at cineform?..

 

[Roberto B]

you've beaten me.. ehehehehe cineform rocks..

because cineform isn´t supported by red. as of yet.

it will be done, but i, and sorry to be tough there, is totaslly silly that they don´t have the recine beta or redalert or the whatever utmost and best support of red.

it seems they have the opposite.

but cineform will hopefully fill in the gap which red intentionally leaves: a 4k one OS postproduction workflow.

you have guts.. no fear.. you say what you're thinking.. WOW

 

[laguun]

again.. why not 4k at cineform?..

good question:
once more:
red doesn´t support cineform.
cineform has to wait until the release in order to implement their workflow (i have 2 red fullfeatures upcoming in nov/dec)
red doesn´t comment, announce or certify anything in post - they just silently embrace 2k yuv editing on OSX (FCP) and a niche DI system on windows (scratch), but do not comment, reassure or support 3hrd parties who would close all the gaps - as cineform.

meanwhile i am really geting paranoid, will red sabotage cineform is one of the most discussed topics here.

iridas speedgrade soes native cineform....

 

[Steve Sherrick]

Jan,

I can understand your frustration, but is it not too early to jump all over this and make definitive statements. How do we know what's going on behind the scenes at Red? I have expressed on other threads an interest in Red developing a more comprehensive web page that can deal with progress reports so that we have some realistic expectations on where things are in developement. But to say they are making back door deals seems a bit presumptious, no?

I'm sure Jim will jump in here and give Red's POV, but it just seems you're being a bit hard on them given the amount of time the cameras have been on the streets, which is not long.

Steve

 

[Roberto B]

good question:
once more:
red doesn´t support cineform.
cineform has to wait until the release in order to implement their workflow (i have 2 red fullfeatures upcoming in nov/dec)
red doesn´t comment, announce or certify anything in post - they just silently embrace 2k yuv editing on OSX (FCP) and a niche DI system on windows (scratch), but do not comment, reassure or support 3hrd parties who would close all the gaps - as cineform.

meanwhile i am really geting paranoid, will red sabotage cineform is one of the most discussed topics here.

iridas speedgrade soes native cineform....

Mr. Jim Jannard and Mr. Graeme Nattress vs Mr. David Newman are both competitors sides..

edit
we can all take advantage from there..

 

[laguun]

Jan,

I can understand your frustration, but is it not too early to jump all over this and make definitive statements. How do we know what's going on behind the scenes at Red?

a) a total silence regarding the topic, and rob and other red employees posted
b) clear statements from avid, discreet heads of development: red dowsn´t want to be supported
c) total lack of zthe use of the momentum in post, any postpro/di/editing vendow would support them but there is -nothing- going on
d) cineform and other great 3hrd party solution providers get silly comments, but no sdk
etc.

I have expressed on other threads an interest in Red developing a more comprehensive web page that can deal with progress reports so that we have some realistic expectations on where things are in developement. But to say they are making back door deals seems a bit presumptious, no?

i hoped so, i a always repeated the "we will support any 3hrd party mantra" , and i never had the idea that a company as red would be afflictable to such beginners mistakes. however: why in 3 heavens name is there no -clear- JJ comment regarding cineform, as: "we will support them"? why do the manufacturers of totally top-edge systems (as matrix crome or sgo myystika) tell us: "red made an exclusive deal, we can´t support them as they barricade us out, why is the #1 DI system for raw (iridas speedgrade) who since over one year support SI, Arri D20, weinberg speedcam, phantom 65 etc. not even worth -one- topic and why do all these questions go unanswered since weeks?

[/QUOTE]
I'm sure Jim will jump in here and give Red's POV, but it just seems you're being a bit hard on them given the amount of time the cameras have been on the streets, which is not long.

Steve[/QUOTE]
taking benefit of the 3hrd partys and houndreds of folks working in R&D isn´t hard.
its logical.
however, after so many threads and so many comments, there isn´t even one statement.

listen, get me right: red did an AWESOME job.
however, this doesn´t make them perfect, and as it seems, their postpro alliances are the direct opposite of the intelligence put in the camera.

 

[Roberto B]

however, this doesn´t make them perfect, and as it seems, their postpro alliances are the direct opposite of the intelligence put in the camera.

yes, this is ala sony intelligence.. is red become a sony?.. :construction: ehehehehe

 

[laguun]

yes, this is ala sony intelligence.. is red became a sony?.. ehehehehe

yeah, it seems so :/

as a facts, we have $$.$$$.$$$ in berlins DI suites.
etablished.
functional.
some even 4k. (not in the assimilate sense, yeah we have 4k, we cant display it but we have it, but -full realtime 4k display via DVS clipster...
not as, yeah we support 4k redcode, but for realtime you will go 1k, half of hd 1080p, yeah we have the ultimate solution for FCP editing on an macbook, but did we mention we are on windows?) but rather in the sense as of "we have proven, etablished 4k workflows incording filmout and lots of epxerience)


and now come my midsized company and has to damped all the enthousiasm regarding red for all the fullfeatures planned on red here.

bad role. i really feel like the shot messsenger.
almost -nobody- believed red could pull the camera, and no, different from before, they asks us: "ok, great, and how do we manage 40h of footage?" how do we use it on and in the proven etc clipster/iridas/lustre/quantel suite?

and my answer is: uncompressed. and the next quiestion is: wasn´t it a raw workflow? and the next answer is: yes, if you want to drop your realtime 4k or invest ~50.000 in a system which event has -one- support in berlin for multimillion productions....

its frustrating and i -sincerly- hope to be silenced by JJ on this point.

 

[Jeff Kilgroe]

a) a total silence regarding the topic, and rob and other red employees posted

Everyone at RED has been real quiet lately on any topic. I think it was Graeme that posted earlier today that they're all busy working. I don't think this means anything -- they were silent on lots of details in the past, which later turned out to be just fine or better than expected.

b) clear statements from avid, discreet heads of development: red dowsn´t want to be supported

But RED has said in the past that they are working on an Avid solution. I have not seen any official anything from Avid that says anything about RED. You're quoting rumors. REDCINE can output DNxHD QT files for Avid... Based on various comments from Jim and Graeme, I've always got the impression that if anyone wants to support RED, all they have to do is contact RED and get the ball rolling.

c) total lack of zthe use of the momentum in post, any postpro/di/editing vendow would support them but there is -nothing- going on

You lost me...

d) cineform and other great 3hrd party solution providers get silly comments, but no sdk
etc.

Who's said they get silly comments and no SDK? David Newman (Cineform) is a semi-regular participant on these forums and a good contributor. I don't recall seeing any such statement from him. The RED camera is still essentially beta and has only been released to 50 people thus far, perhaps RED isn't ready to release an unfinished or beta SDK except to a few key testers like Assimilate (SCRATCH).

Anyway, I don't really understand where you're coming from with a lot of this. You use several Sony formats as an example of how you can use them and explain them. Well most of those formats have been available for YEARS, some of them for well over a decade. RED has been in the semi-open market for like 40 days now. Oh, and plenty of NLE and other post software doesn't support HDCAM formats, just as several don't support DVCPROHD. Not everyone supports everything, and as Chris said, much of this support usually falls on the software developers outside of these camera companies. If I recall correctly, Panasonic has no DVPRO[HD] SDK, but rather you license the usage rights from them and you buy the SMPTE spec package and write your own codec and software, or license from Panny and buy your codec from a thrid party. There's a lot of industry politics at play too and we're not sure just if, where and how RED will fit into such things yet.

 

[GlennChan]

laguun... I think you're misreading things here.

Data-based workflow
1- Crossing The Line was finished on an iQ.

The data-based workflow is there, it works. The downside I believe is that they had to manually export clips out of Red Alert (and possibly manually create an EDL or the whole edit??). Redcine should make it more automated / less time-consuming. But despite Redcine not existing, the project was finished before its deadline (of 2 weeks?) for offline + online.

2- The data workflow for high-end systems is presumably something like this:

Offline edit.

Export EDL to Redcine. (Ok, Redcine is not available yet.)

Redcine will output DPXs (or other format like TIFF).

The finishing system ingests/conforms the project from an EDL and the DPXs.

SDI-based workflow
3- If you want to ingest via SDI (instead of data files), then I haven't heard from the Red team about this. (So you'd have a point there.)

You can likely figure out a way to conform in FCP or Scratch... and then export a conformed timeline onto tape or a DDR. e.g.
Offline edit in whatever NLE.
Export EDL to Redcine.
Redcine exports a 10-bit+ format supported by Quicktime/FCP. Hopefully there will be 10-bit 4:4:4 support. (I'm not sure on this point.)
Conform the project in FCP. (Including any non-Red footage.)
Layoff to HDCAM SR (or something else).
Export an EDL of that conformed timeline... it should be pretty easy to make source in/out match project in/out.
Ingest into finishing system.

And then from there you can definitely ingest into high-end systems because they all support HD-SDI.

Practical SDI workflows are limited to HD (and 2K) resolution right now I think. (Only the data route/workflow with DPX/TIFF works for 4k???)

4- Some parts of the puzzle aren't in place yet (e.g. Redcine isn't out yet; being beta tested?). The Red team is working on it and ironing all the little bugs and quirks... so they may not be saying anything because Redcine might change.

4b- I think it's safe to presume that Jim wants the Red being used on Hollywood films, and will make sure there is a workflow there for high-end finishing systems. The 4K data-based workflow will be there.

As far as SDI-based workflows go... it should be possible.

5- Most high-end systems don't support native editing... and they don't really need to.

Native editing also (likely) won't allow for a high-quality 4k debayer in real-time (and leaving enough resources for real-time effects). And really... having to conform to uncompressed isn't all that bad. Especially if you can be more efficient than the current workflow (e.g. tape-based systems not being frame accurate all the time).

For dailies work, native editing is definitely very useful (having to transcode/render would slow down dailies generation a lot). Which is likely why the partnership with Scratch is there.

 

[RivaiC]

Speedgrade for OSX has a huge drawback. We tried out a demo straight from patrick and collaborating with him. It just not ready for OS X yet.

Example ? OS X doesn't support Nvidia SDI Card, and speedgrade can't output thru any IO card, so u got to have a conversion from ur 2nd unit display which display 8 bit and not even 10 bit. This is a drawback from OSX platform, which speedgrade cant do anything. Let's just hope that leopard fix this, but i doubt big time.

Don't fall too easily on outsiders and claimed to be official or whatsoever. You can always use the DPX, TIFF for other systems. So what to worry ? 4K is new my friend. It's in early stage and your expectation is not realistic at all.

This reminds me of when we tried to promote F900 years back. Obviously they don't have F900 post. So you got to build one to support your camera. Otherwise, it will be dead. But you're lucky to be in US.

 

[Gunleik Groven]

Laguun is in Berlin... -

Gunleik

 

[david farland]

2 things......

1. Most of you are missing Laguun's point. There is only one proper grading package, Scratch that can utilise native Red code without a transcode. The alternative is transcoding to huge files sizes needing $$$ hardware or to lower quality for near RT.

2. Red hasn't even finished Redcine or the camera for that matter, so I'd give them a bit of a break here when asking why haven't they got all these 3rd parties ready.

But...yep it's in MY interest to have all these 3rd parties Red enabled & I'm sure the truth of Red's marketing approach is very simple.....
But hey so is scratching your balls...doesn't mean you let everyone in on it!

Cheers,

 

[Lucas Wilson]

use scratch (at 1k realtime).

I posted on another thread... development is happening constantly. 2k was at 15/16 fps a week ago. Yesterday, I was at a customers site and we were seeing 22/23 fps. Still not realtime, but... development is happening constantly.

...and have a small partner for DI.

I guess that's a matter of perspective. We are a small company. But here are some of our customers - there are many more, these are just some of the ones that are public on our website:

EFilm, Digital Domain, Acht! Frankfurt, Cinesite UK, Oriental Post Bangkok, Technicolor/Creative Bridge, etc.

So yes - we are a small company... with a lot of big customers. And in LA at least, there are many many more SCRATCH systems than iQs or Baselights. There might be more than Lustre, but I don't think so... yet.

So... I guess it depends on your definition of "small partner." I'm kinda short. Maybe you're referring to that?

you will want to be the first berlin basing customer for the 50.000 euro scratch. no one has it, no one needs it, but you have to buy it for this fullfaeture, because the red is...

We have customers in Berlin... who have it... and need it. The "prize" of first Berlin customer was taken a little while ago. Just fyi - this was before RED.

Lucas
-----
ASSIMILATE, Inc.
LA, CA, USA