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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

waiting for scarlet

chrislancaster

chrislancaster

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I cant help but think the 5d is doing nothing more than paving a smooth road for Scarlet to drive 100 mph down

sets are changing bigger names are using smaller cameras and the possibilities are endless

by the time scarlet is released a large number of movies and tv shows will be written with less boundaries because of the size of the camera

i believe story board artist will totally re think the shots and angles with these smaller cameras in mind

no more pushing mass

new angles .. new POV's .. new possibilities


RED is a hell of a lot smarter than some give them credit for


especially myself .. i am now humbled in my wait for scarlet


sorry for the ramblings ..thats what Monster does to me :smile:
 
RED and Canon's 5D/7D are certainly making an impact on the way movies are made. But it's premature to say that "film is dead" or that "by the time scarlet releases a large number of movies and television shows will use smaller cameras." I think the 5D and 7D are great tools for their price, and they're certainly capable of some great footage given a knowledgeable user behind the machine. But ultimately it's a niche camera, in my opinion. I also don't think that digital cameras are quite good enough to replace film cameras yet. Film cameras have been exposing film in the same way for a hundred years - and over that time period engineers have perfected the design and mechanics to create what you might consider a peak performance and efficient machine. Digital hasn't had that same time frame, and while it's come a long way, there's still a lot of distance to go in that respect.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not hating on digital. I love digital and I shoot it like 80% of the time, since I'm a younger cinematographer and the majority of the work I do is in the low budget independent world. And I am super, SUPER stoked for Scarlet because of the possibilities it will allow me. But I don't think that you'll see digital formats take the "market share" in terms of productions for a long time...15-20 years is my guess.
 
Market Share for Film

Market Share for Film

Sean Finnegan said:
... since I'm a younger cinematographer and the majority of the work I do is in the low budget independent world. And I am super, SUPER stoked for Scarlet because of the possibilities it will allow me. But I don't think that you'll see digital formats take the "market share" in terms of productions for a long time...15-20 years is my guess.
Click to expand...

With all due respect for a young and most probably talented cinematographer, I am not young and my talent is yet to be proven in this new arena, but I sincerely doubt that film will have even 5% of "market share" in as little as 10 years.
 
Terry VerHaar said:
With all due respect for a young and most probably talented cinematographer, I am not young and my talent is yet to be proven in this new arena, but I sincerely doubt that film will have even 5% of "market share" in as little as 10 years.
Click to expand...

Well, I'm not that young. I guess I meant I'm young for a cinematographer. At any rate, there is no doubt that digital has been closing the gap very quickly. We live in a world where technology is here one day, and newer, more efficient technology arrives the next. So in that sense, yeah, maybe it'll be sooner rather than later that we see digital really give film a run for its money, so to say.

However, the issues lie outside of just the ability of digital formats to replicate film's physical phenomena - it's also an issue of distribution, cost (regarding the distribution, not production), and archivability. 95% of theaters in the US are equipped with film projectors, and only a very, very small portion of theaters have digital projections since they're hugely expensive. Lastly, film as a format has proven itself to be timeless when properly cared for. We still have film negative's from pre-1910 that play perfectly in a modern projector. Sure, the negative might be a little brittle but nothing's perfect. With digital, there is no archiving because any type of optical media becomes outdated within a matter of years. Who knows if in 10-15 years we'll even have the machines to playback things we store on the media we use today.

Case in point: VHS. VHS changed the way movies were viewed in the 1980s with the advent of the VCR. Suddenly, people could watch movies in the privacy of their own homes. The technology was hailed as the end of the theater, since you didn't have to go there anymore to watch movies. And around 1990 something like 85% of homes had a VCR in the United States - VHS technology was ubiquitous. Fast forward to 1995, less than a decade after VHS's prime. The DVD is invented, and it becomes enormously popular by 1999.

Now, take a look around. I don't even know anyone who still owns VHS tapes, much less a VCR to play them. I'm sure someone out there still owns the technology (one of my professors' PhD thesis' was on the archival of VHS so he probably does) but the point is that VHS and VCRs seem ancient to us, and it wasn't really all that long ago. This poses a huge problem for storying film, because had VHS becoming the primary storage for film much like digital films are being stored today, we might have lost a big portion of the films from that time period. None of us have the foresight to say for sure that the DVD won't go the way of the VHS, or the 8-track tape. Who knows, maybe in 2020 you won't know anyone who has a DVD player.

And such is the argument for the archivability of film. If you knew how to work a projector, and you were careful, you could whip out a 100+ year old negative and put it into a projector and it'd work just fine. And projectors are everywhere. I think that's a huge reason that even films shot digitally will still be finished to film, and viewed on film for years to come. But if there's anything I've learned from growing up in the information and technology age, it's that no technology lasts forever and even the best types fall eventually. There's no doubt a day coming where film will die out for practical purposes. But that day is far off, I think.
 
Sean, I'm not sure what you mean by "market share" -- if you mean episodic television, we're probably close to getting there this year or next -- if you mean theatrical films, I think Terry is probably close, that within a decade most films will be shot digitally and perhaps even a majority within half a decade.

This I say as a guy who spent most of his shooting years shooting on film -- with all its headaches and wonders and marvels and advances. And now feel born too soon.

But I think in general, most professional work will continue to migrate to more robust dedicated to motion image capture cameras like Red, Alexia, etc -- the DSLRs with their impressive but limited video capabilities are filling a short term niche on the pro level. Not that it matters really. Whatever tool is available that can do the job with sufficient quality to say whatever it is you're saying-- use it.
 
The Fox series “House” will be using Canon 5D Mark II’s to shoot the final episode this season


when i read this i could not help but think if they are willing to accept the 5d with all of its flaws at that level it wont be long before it will just be the norm.


It just seems 5d is "beta" testing the market for scarlet.. and the market wants what scarlet has to offer even at the pro level


I cant help but believe that all shows will eventually be on the web and you will just go

www.lost.com or w/e your favorite show is and watch it there at their domain

that is why film wont matter and until the internet gets a lot faster ..resolution

people will accept 720 and 1080 like they have mp3's

just my honest opinion


but this possibilty is very cool because local markets will serve local interest and be more in tune with their products buyers wants and needs

imagine a different version of "House" in multiple areas of the country(south,west, east, midwest, etc...) but the characters have your accent and they referenced you cities landmarks, diners, sports teams and what nots


there i go rambling..sorry :biggrin:
 
chrislancaster said:
The Fox series “House” will be using Canon 5D Mark II’s to shoot the final episode this season


when i read this i could not help but think if they are willing to accept the 5d with all of its flaws at that level it wont be long before it will just be the norm.


It just seems 5d is "beta" testing the market for scarlet.. and the market wants what scarlet has to offer even at the pro level


:
Click to expand...

David Mullen said it best:

New tools... well, the obvious one is the new M-X Red One, which I think has pretty much solidified the camera's position as the best digital cine camera out there in the market, until Red (or someone else...) comes up with something better. Being able to work at 800 ASA as a base without any compromise is amazing, and to be able to not break a sweat and shoot at 2000 ASA is fantastic.

Being able today to use a DSLR for tiny spaces is also an interesting new trend, though I can't wait for the Scarlet and Epic to come along in order to avoid the picture quality issues that these DSLR's have.
Click to expand...
 
i totally agree Jim .. i have the 7d and i love it for what it is ... im really hoping to go Epic maybe a scarlet fixed as well


but i digress i did not mean that in a literal way .. just that the 5d is paving the way for all smaller cinema cameras

but with the no compromise approach RED is taking

Epic/Scarlet will surely reign supreme

:biggrin:
 
Maybe I'm biased in that I come from a very traditional film school education, but I am not convinced on the 5D and 7D as "cinema" cameras. They're not purpose built machines. I am not denying that they're capable of some great looking footage, because they certainly are, but in the end they're still still cameras that can shoot HD video. Not cameras designed and engineered for cinema use.
 
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Yea, Scarlet s35 is the camera that I could see myself using for years.... but I have a feeling i'm in for quite a wait.... for now, I will be happy learning with whatever everyone else launches (5DII), for now.
 
I think what Red is to regular independent filmmakers, these new Canon DSLR's are to extremely low-budget independent filmmakers.

I was talking recently to a friend who makes very small movies and after saying for years that he hated HD, DV, etc. and would only shoot on film, usually 16mm, he is now shooting features on a 7D -- so clearly price, once it dropped low enough, outweighed his high ideas about picture quality.

I was at Samy's Cameras the other day and witnessed the sales person having to give a basic filmmaking tutorial to someone buying a Canon 7D outfit.

This sort of enthusiasm is similar to what Red caused among filmmakers of a certain budget level a couple of years earlier, but now it's hitting an even lower-budgeted bracket of the filmmaking community (I'm ignoring the well-budgeted commercials and music videos using Canons, which just plain baffles me, the picture quality issues haven't gone away!)

Either all of this is paving the way for Scarlet because people will jump at the higher quality and true cine features... or it's already taken over a chunk of that marketshare by getting there first and a lot of people don't care or can't see the quality problems with DSLR video.
 
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David Mullen ASC said:
I think what Red is to regular independent filmmakers, these new Canon DSLR's are to extremely low-budget independent filmmakers.

I was talking recently to a friend who makes very small movies and after saying for years that he hated HD, DV, etc. and would only shoot on film, usually 16mm, he is now shooting features on a 7D -- so clearly price, once it dropped low enough, outweighed his high ideas about picture quality.

I was at Samy's Cameras the other day and witnessed the sales person having to give a basic filmmaking tutorial to someone buying a Canon 7D outfit.

This sort of enthusiasm is similar to what Red caused among filmmakers of a certain budget level a couple of years earlier, but now it's hitting an even lower-budgeted bracket of the filmmaking community (I'm ignoring the well-budgeted commercials and music videos using Canons, which just plain baffles me, the picture quality issues haven't gone away!)

Either all of this is paving the way for Scarlet because people will jump at the higher quality and true cine features... or it's already taken over a chunk of that marketshare by getting there first and a lot of people don't care or can't see the quality problems with DSLR video.
Click to expand...
This, this and more this. My thoughts so I didn't have to say them myself.:thumbup:
 
David Mullen ASC said:
I think what Red is to regular independent filmmakers, these new Canon DSLR's are to extremely low-budget independent filmmakers.

I was talking recently to a friend who makes very small movies and after saying for years that he hated HD, DV, etc. and would only shoot on film, usually 16mm, he is now shooting features on a 7D -- so clearly price, once it dropped low enough, outweighed his high ideas about picture quality.

I was at Samy's Cameras the other day and witnessed the sales person having to give a basic filmmaking tutorial to someone buying a Canon 7D outfit.

This sort of enthusiasm is similar to what Red caused among filmmakers of a certain budget level a couple of years earlier, but now it's hitting an even lower-budgeted bracket of the filmmaking community (I'm ignoring the well-budgeted commercials and music videos using Canons, which just plain baffles me, the picture quality issues haven't gone away!)

Either all of this is paving the way for Scarlet because people will jump at the higher quality and true cine features... or it's already taken over a chunk of that marketshare by getting there first and a lot of people don't care or can't see the quality problems with DSLR video.
Click to expand...


maybe the dslr's will ignite a passion with a new market .. and give them the "hunger" for bigger and better

which will open their budgets to RED ..

thats how i started .. im too much of a small fish at the moment to get the one .. but that does not mean i wont ever be able to

and the 7d is helping me keep my interest in film making

i think a lot of new users will want better cinema style cameras in the next couple of years
 
When you look at something like the T2I at only 800 bucks, these cameras certainly open up 35mm cinema style filmmaking to a whole new class of enthusiast. They have their niche in the market and are certainly a big step up from a micro sized chip handicam, even with the image quality and ergonomic functionality issues. Like Red, they have in essence created their own market.

As general purpose motion production cameras they are still pretty limited though and will need to evolve away from the traditional mirror reflex still camera form factor to something more like a camcorder to be more practical. I'm sure the image quality will improve over time with better sensors and processors.
 
David Rasberry said:
As general purpose motion production cameras they are still pretty limited though and will need to evolve away from the traditional mirror reflex still camera form factor to something more like a camcorder to be more practical.
Click to expand...

This is what I've been wondering about. Why doesn't Canon just put a 35mm in a body similar to the XH/XL, ya know?
 
David Mullen ASC said:
Either all of this is paving the way for Scarlet because people will jump at the higher quality and true cine features... or it's already taken over a chunk of that marketshare by getting there first and a lot of people don't care or can't see the quality problems with DSLR video.
Click to expand...

Most people don't see the quality problems and when they
are pointed out to them...they don't care. It seems as
long as overall picture color..sharpness..and intergrity are there
people really are willing to overlook aliasing as such.

But when you put PL mounts on the HDSLR you quickly bump up the
camera to $5,000 price. Right in Scarlet territory. And really Scarlet
has so many more features in it's favor...it's a no brainer.
Real question will be how the next generation of HDSLR compare to
Scarlet.
 
Well for one Lee, it would be tariffed as a video camera so it wouldn't be $800 any more. Also, if it's a video camera, then we would expect at least prosumer level of video camera capabilities like decent audio, longer record times or maybe even a decent high quality output to bypass the codec. Supply and demand dictates that all these features would demand a higher pricetag than the 7D. Especially considering there is nothing like that in this price range. People would be willing to pay for it
 
David Mullen ASC said:
(I'm ignoring the well-budgeted commercials and music videos using Canons, which just plain baffles me, the picture quality issues haven't gone away!)
Click to expand...

I am coming across this more and more lately, even here in a 25fps environment where the conversion from 30fps reduces quality even further. It's mainly the TVC market but the impact is obvious. The deciding factor to this is the full frame depth of field advantage. A lot of these companies were shooting RED but have bought themselves a 5D with a few lenses and away they go. It's a shame and the problem being is that it is commonly the people making these decisions don't have the skillset looking at image quality and the flaws and restrictions to what the DSLR's are giving them. But they CAN see the great depth of field and a 'pretty' pic when a skilled DP is handling them...so they are sold. And these are not all low budget TVC's either!
The arrival of Scarlet will definitely make ground back but i am certain that with only having a 2/3" sensor(to start until FF) , despite being overwhelmingly better than any DSLR, will limit their usage in this particular situation. Of course they can use their lenses on the 2/3" Scarlet but the FOV crop will drag them down. RED will need to bring out the FF Scarlet to make serious inroads against this trend in my opinion as this is the BIG and pretty much only advantage with the Canons. And i am pretty certain Canon will be launching a new DSLR (of types) of their own soon enough without line-skipping, without the bad artefacts, much faster re-write, more control, no H264 and probably Canon RAW or similar. If this happens it will be critical for RED to get their FF out there ASAP.
It's still a niche market and it will settle out when reality sets in, as it did when the Red One came out with all its hype and after a while the reality set in and it has settled into it's market. It's exciting times and the choices are becoming very good and very wide...it just bothers me when apparently 'professional' people use tools for a job that are not suited because they are blinded by the hype. It happened with the Red One, it's happening with the 5D...and will continue with such large leaps being undertaken in this day and age.
 
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