Wages Of Big Hit DP's

[S. Um]

It seems to me like artists of any kind will only work at jobs that are slightly below their potential or skill level. Producers are just so cautious that they would never hire anyone who 'might be able to do it if they really pushed themselves'. They want to know that you can come in and slaughter the job, absolutely do it with your eyes shut. So if you're hiring for a commercial shooting glamour, you want the guy who has done it two trillion times already and probably in reality is absolutely bored of doing it.

If that were always true, then there would never be any advances in film making (or anything else for that matter). Sometimes, if you have a good relationship with a director or producer, and they get a challenging job, they might ask you to come along, too. Sometimes you're doing something that no one has done before, and you have to innovate. I think you'll find that many successful people are always trying new things in order to stay on top of their game.

 

[donatello b]

producers are always looking for new talent ... bottom line is OK/good might not be good enough ... there's no problem finding ok/good DP's in LA ... they have their eye out for something more ... and many times they see it in new persons or even the OK Dp's that have been around and they give them a chance BUT if they don't deliver they could be replaced (maybe day before shoot , or day or 2 into shoot) .... kind of like the movie's where you see the "fixer" or "cleanup " guy come in ... same on projects -a kind of unspoken DP that doesn't get any credit and many dislike ...

 

[laguun]

some remarks from the european production side
- average music video clips have had their budgets slashed, as the music industry isnt doing well and the marketing utility of the clips is no longer anywhere near where it used to be in the early 90ties. in fact, in europe, many budgets are 10-20K, for the -full- production, and better paid productions see fierce competition between different dp/director tandems.
- for fullfeatures, europe (and to some extend canada) are getting lots of bookings from the USA, as wages are -extremely- lower here. excellent dps often are looking for work in the mid to upper $$$ daily region. Besides very few absolutely over-the-top dps, the $$$ ballpark seems to become the market majority over here.
- commercials are still wellpaid, however rather $.$$$, $$.$$$ is exceptional. however being networked with agencies, having recent highly acclaimed work and being connected with hip directors are usually more important than a reel. furthermore, most dps are specialized in a certain genre (as car/food/people/fluids etc) and agencies tend to choose between a few wellknown veterans.
- specialized DP skills (as in expert for MoCo etc) easily add 20-200% to any usual payment

therefore i would not recommend spending 100K for a reel to almost any german DP.

 

[Mitch Deoudes]

Here's a thought exercise that's been recurrent in my mind: taking the music industry as a model for predicting the film industry. (Very similar product, the difference being primarily bandwidth.)

With the advent of "democratizing" technologies such as desktop-based production software, internet distribution, etc., it's becoming easier and easier for an individual to produce and distribute content. But does this mean that everyone can be a rock star? No - it just means that the base of the pyramid is getting wider. Nor has it put an end to the Superstar the way some people predict - there are still the Cristina Aguileras and Spiderman 3's, even though everyone and his brother is on iTunes or YouTube.

So my question is: what has happened to the day rates of music industry trench-workers in recent years? Have they fallen? It seems like people are saying that's what's happening to DP's, even as the amount of overall production rises. (It certainly has happened in VFX, and much work has headed to India or Asia or that-kid-who-just-graduated.)

Discuss amongst y'selves. And I apologize for using lames phrases like "democratizing technologies".

 

[Hans von Sonntag]

The daily commercial rate for a travelling DP, like me, here in the EU is aprox 2-3K euros= 3-4K$. Only very very high profile feature and commercial DPs get 7-10K$ a day

True. Although there are some Director/DOPs (doing both in one time) that will earn a bit more.

Apart from this, showreels are about brands. An expensive looking showreel is much more worth than an artistc interesting one, at least in commercial land.

Hans

 

[David Mullen ASC]

If someone can afford to make a $100,000 demo reel... it seems to me that they are already quite successful in whatever their current career is...

 

[dracul]

It seems to me like artists of any kind will only work at jobs that are slightly below their potential or skill level. Producers are just so cautious that they would never hire anyone who 'might be able to do it if they really pushed themselves'. They want to know that you can come in and slaughter the job, absolutely do it with your eyes shut. So if you're hiring for a commercial shooting glamour, you want the guy who has done it two trillion times already and probably in reality is absolutely bored of doing it.

Thats what i have found also. I guess the people hiring you cannot be blamed. They treat it like a business and want to minimize risk. If I were a producer that's the route i would take.

 

[dracul]

If someone can afford to make a $100,000 demo reel... it seems to me that they are already quite successful in whatever their current career is...

Mr. Mullen, of course you are correct, however when I started dreaming about being a DP at 18 I was not thinking about doing as a career for income, living etc.. I chose it because it was the love of my life , lighting , moving images, in short the magic that a DP can create. I was particularly stimulated to shoot dark movies.

And so today many years later I still have this love for cinematography. After getting feedback from you and others on the reality of making money as a DP again recently, I would not currently consider shooting for a living since i feel my current entrepreneurship is more advantageous. However i want to do it because i love it.
Its also rather unfortunate that the industry does not recognize the difference between those who do it for the money and those who do it for the love of it since what really matters is to minimize risk.

 

[David Mullen ASC]

Most of us do it because we love it -- there are easier ways to make a living! It's because the industry recognizes that a lot of people do this for the love of it that they find it easy to exploit people... Why do you think it often pays better to shoot industrials and corporate videos than feature films? I spent a decade making less than $20,000 a year shooting three features a year on average, paid about $6000 a feature. If that isn't a sign that I was doing it for the love of it rather than the money, I don't know what would.

Whenever a beginner asks me "how much money can I hope to make?" I think to myself that they've got the wrong career in mind, because you do this work because you love it and can't imagine doing anything else. It's not really a career for dabblers or hobbyists either because the level of competition is so high, unless it really is just a hobby and not a career...

You have to ask yourself whether any successful DP ever spent $100,000 on a demo reel, and the answer would be probably not. Mainly because most couldn't afford that anyway, but most also didn't need to spend that much money.

 

[dracul]

If that were always true, then there would never be any advances in film making (or anything else for that matter). Sometimes, if you have a good relationship with a director or producer, and they get a challenging job, they might ask you to come along, too. Sometimes you're doing something that no one has done before, and you have to innovate. I think you'll find that many successful people are always trying new things in order to stay on top of their game.

But its not the newbies or inexperienced that make these innovations in the film industry. Not because they are not capable but because they don't get a chance. Film making is expensive. Other industries , sure the newbie who can use his computer from home to invent a new 3d software with no glasses etc...
But not where big money is involved. As far as the producer, director asking you to come along on a project, you can bet if there is big money involved and you are on board at least one money authority has been convinced that you can do the job just fine. If there is any doubt by the guy with the money, asta la vista for you. If on the other hand there is not so much money involved there is much more tolerance for "lets give the little guy a shot"

 

[dracul]

Most of us do it because we love it -- there are easier ways to make a living! It's because the industry recognizes that a lot of people do this for the love of it that they find it easy to exploit people... Why do you think it often pays better to shoot industrials and corporate videos than feature films? I spent a decade making less than $20,000 a year shooting three features a year on average, paid about $6000 a feature. If that isn't a sign that I was doing it for the love of it rather than the money, I don't know what would.

Whenever a beginner asks me "how much money can I hope to make?" I think to myself that they've got the wrong career in mind, because you do this work because you love it.

I was not implying that you are doing it for the money just in general many are especially those shooting commercials. Yes you are correct, for those wanting to make lots of money this is the wrong carreer. I thought I could trade my time for taking a DP path yet still making at least 500k per year but I realize that while that may be possible, its more of a long shot and will take many years to get there. And at this point, it would be smarter to just shoot my own projects with my own money.

 

[dracul]

producers are always looking for new talent ... bottom line is OK/good might not be good enough ... there's no problem finding ok/good DP's in LA ... they have their eye out for something more ... and many times they see it in new persons or even the OK Dp's that have been around and they give them a chance BUT if they don't deliver they could be replaced (maybe day before shoot , or day or 2 into shoot) .... kind of like the movie's where you see the "fixer" or "cleanup " guy come in ... same on projects -a kind of unspoken DP that doesn't get any credit and many dislike ...

So in this case there would be very little risk for the production don't you think. Say a 1mill picture would risk very little in one or 2 days of shooting? So why not give the little guy a chance more often?

 

[David Mullen ASC]

Well, for one producer, a $100,000 feature budget is a HUGE personal risk, whereas for another producer, a 10 million dollar movie is slumming it... obviously up-and-comers do get lucky breaks shooting something, usually because they are talented and willing to work cheap for the opportunity to move up. But generally the DP is one of those crew persons where the producer wants the least amount of risk involved in hiring, partly because their mistakes can be expensive and also because a DP often sets the pace of the production, since lighting set-ups are often the most time-consuming element of production.

 

[donatello b]

"So in this case there would be very little risk for the production don't you think. Say a 1mill picture would risk very little in one or 2 days of shooting? So why not give the little guy a chance more often?"

the risk could be very expensive ... the person getting the break has to do good during pre-production and the 1st few days of shooting ... sometimes when the DP goes - some of the their crew will walk - so it can be expensive to replace DP and crew that walked ...
BUT in general everything is in place when a key person gets ?? what's the word ? departs , walks, leaves , gets the next 4 weeks off with pay...

 

[James T Mather]

- Usually withOUT pay.

 

[ac/jc]

For a producer, an experienced DP can overcome a "new" or "green" director. It can be a wise investment. That is why it's very hard for a newbie DP or 1st AD for that matter to get a break because producers want to be assured of results and on-time, on-budget. If your track record is merely a $100K reel where you dictated the pace and shots and there was no pressure it doesn't show that you can motivate a crew or work a set when everything has stalled.

$100K on a reel is too much investment. You could get away with a lot less $$ and still put out a nice reel. Then you have to get people to watch it. A ton of reels go unseen.

Another option since you have a good paying job is to work in the camera department on some time off. Work under some experienced DP's in some trying situations and see if it's for you. It's not all about making pretty pictures sometimes.

 

[Jason Ing]

i think part of that 100k budget includes buying the red package, correct?

 

[Stephen Williams]

i think part of that 100k budget includes buying the red package, correct?

Hi,

I would have thought if you were shooting a $100,000 commercial show reel then film would probably be the medium of choice.

Stephen

 

[Russ McDonald]

I thought I would chime in here, take your 100,000 and find a script. One that has the elements that will showcase what you can do as DP. be selective and take your time.

Find a hungry Director with talent give him the break, shoot his film. Now you have a film that you have a real equity stake in. If I had your money, this is what I would do.

First. I would buy a years worth of insurance that would allow me to rent anything I wanted as far as Grip and Camera gear.

I would buy a basic Red package, and one lens that 18-85 would do nicely.
then I would buy a moderately supped up Mac so I could post the film.

Then I would put the rest away to market the film at a couple festivals.

There are filmmakers that have money just sitting in the wings, if they could get that first investor the rest would fall in line, that would take a dream and turn it into a green light picture. You have the money and the gear you have the power. It's a win win for you and them, and the odds are good you'll double your Money. Support your artist side, with what I can see is a sharp business side.

 

[Jason Ing]

Hi,

I would have thought if you were shooting a $100,000 commercial show reel then film would probably be the medium of choice.

Stephen

i assumed it since this is the reduser forum. and the price tag makes a little more sense and not so extravagent for a show reel if you include red plus other stuff.