Voiding warranty - what other surprises are there besides Global Media batteries?

[Meryem Ersoz]

well, yes, that is the problem. having a pre-approved list of things which won't burn your audio board seems like a reasonable solution. we should not have to be audio engineers reading wiring diagrams to know what is ok to plug in....especially when you have an ever-increasing base of users jumping from plug n play camcorder world. You don't want to set your new users up to fail.

 

[Scott Crawley]

But Red has provided the necessary information in the user's guide. The wiring diagrams are there.

A professional tool by it's nature requires the user to handle it in a professional manner. Red could build in a fail safe I suppose, but as it stands the responsibility is on the user where it belongs.

 

[Les C.]

I think this really boils down to common sense. If you use a bad power supply that fries your camera, of course RED cannot be held responsible. If you fill crap gas into your Ferrari and it wrecks your engine, you would have to pay for the repair.

I use both RED Volts and a variety of V-lock batteries from name suppliers. I use a high quality charger for them, if a battery should be bad, it wouldn't get charged.

Also, if one type of battery should turn out to be frying cameras, I am sure we'd all heard about it by now.

tltr; Use common sense. Chill. Shoot pictures.

The original thread where I learned about GMP 'issues' was pulled (I guess by you).

From memory, the user had stated that RED said it was NOT caused by him and under warranty, and then when he told them he used GMP, they charged him around $1300-1500. I don't remember that RED examined the GMP batteries.

I think it would have been far more useful to have added clarification to the thread, or changed the heading, if there was incorrect information in the thread.

From a pulled thread we learn nothing, except to be a bit paranoid.

I've seen several posts lately from users warning about GMP voiding the warranty, but no threads from RED.

As there are a very large number of GMP users, and if you were to post a thread that 'GMP voids warranty' on the Epic forum, you'd probably get a large number of surprised users. We're not talking about some fly-by-night ebay seller.

As others have stated, GMP is generally regarded as being a 'good' manufacturer on this forum (I have no direct knowledge, I don't own any). There are a massive # of threads on GMP.

RED sees these threads. If they do nothing to warn users that they will invalidate their warranty by using GMP, and only tells them they have invalidated a their warranty if there's an issue with the camera ....

That's not a win-win scenario.

If there are products that RED knows will damage the cameras (and thus void the warranty) that it has evidence for, RED should tell their customers so that they don't use these products - and not surprise them during a warranty call.

The effect of that would just shut down all feedback from users - and RED wouldn't learn of possible new problems with 3rd party accessories.

 

[Keegan@Netflix]

Les and others,

As Jarred posted, we are trying to protect. All of our engineers are running at full speed to help with new firmware, new product releases, if a third party company wants to send us product to certify we will. It's just like buying a new car, if you want to upgrade your car with an aftermarket part, is the dealership going to honor the warranty if that product damages your car? most cases no. There have been cases in the past (with the RED ONE) where we are aware of third party products that have damaged cameras and we have communicated that. RED knows there are a handful of different power solutions out in the market, its at the customers own risk if he wants to use these solutions instead of buying RED power supply. If we find a trend of a certain brand that damages cameras we will let everyone know.

If a customer chooses not to disclose information regarding the use of third party accessories when something happens all they are doing is allowing this to happen again. The camera will go down they will have to send it to RED for repair again.

The original thread where I learned about GMP 'issues' was pulled (I guess by you).

From memory, the user had stated that RED said it was NOT caused by him and under warranty, and then when he told them he used GMP, they charged him around $1300-1500. I don't remember that RED examined the GMP batteries.

I think it would have been far more useful to have added clarification to the thread, or changed the heading, if there was incorrect information in the thread.

From a pulled thread we learn nothing, except to be a bit paranoid.

I've seen several posts lately from users warning about GMP voiding the warranty, but no threads from RED.

As there are a very large number of GMP users, and if you were to post a thread that 'GMP voids warranty' on the Epic forum, you'd probably get a large number of surprised users. We're not talking about some fly-by-night ebay seller.

As others have stated, GMP is generally regarded as being a 'good' manufacturer on this forum (I have no direct knowledge, I don't own any). There are a massive # of threads on GMP.

RED sees these threads. If they do nothing to warn users that they will invalidate their warranty by using GMP, and only tells them they have invalidated a their warranty if there's an issue with the camera ....

That's not a win-win scenario.

If there are products that RED knows will damage the cameras (and thus void the warranty) that it has evidence for, RED should tell their customers so that they don't use these products - and not surprise them during a warranty call.

The effect of that would just shut down all feedback from users - and RED wouldn't learn of possible new problems with 3rd party accessories.

 

[Ian B. Johnson]

Les and others,

As Jarred posted, we are trying to protect. All of our engineers are running at full speed to help with new firmware, new product releases, if a third party company wants to send us product to certify we will. It's just like buying a new car, if you want to upgrade your car with an aftermarket part, is the dealership going to honor the warranty if that product damages your car? most cases no. There have been cases in the past (with the RED ONE) where we are aware of third party products that have damaged cameras and we have communicated that. RED knows there are a handful of different power solutions out in the market, its at the customers own risk if he wants to use these solutions instead of buying RED power supply. If we find a trend of a certain brand that damages cameras we will let everyone know.

If a customer chooses not to disclose information regarding the use of third party accessories when something happens all they are doing is allowing this to happen again. The camera will go down they will have to send it to RED for repair again.

Michael,

Thanks for the clarification. Where can we find a list of approved power options?

Cheers,
Ian

 

[Les C.]

Les and others,

As Jarred posted, we are trying to protect. All of our engineers are running at full speed to help with new firmware, new product releases, if a third party company wants to send us product to certify we will. It's just like buying a new car, if you want to upgrade your car with an aftermarket part, is the dealership going to honor the warranty if that product damages your car? most cases no. There have been cases in the past (with the RED ONE) where we are aware of third party products that have damaged cameras and we have communicated that. RED knows there are a handful of different power solutions out in the market, its at the customers own risk if he wants to use these solutions instead of buying RED power supply. If we find a trend of a certain brand that damages cameras we will let everyone know.

If a customer chooses not to disclose information regarding the use of third party accessories when something happens all they are doing is allowing this to happen again. The camera will go down they will have to send it to RED for repair again.

Michael - for RED to void his warranty due to the GMP battery, without examining it, they must have previous knowledge.

Maybe GMP batteries can put out a power surge, some design flaw, I don't know?

But, there has to be a basis for saying this caused a problem, other than 'not made by RED'.

Are you saying officially that GMP batteries are a product that 'damages cameras' - and will void your warranty?

Can you give us some info on how this happens?

I'd really like to understand batteries better (I read eetimes, and realize that lithium batteries are actually quite complex - they are NOT car batteries).

A detailed explanation would certainly help to explain why a RED battery is better engineered - to point out the flaws in batteries you have examined - and help us to better care for our cameras.

But, as a user in this forum, I thrive on information. That's why I'm here. To understand all this better.

So, please help me in that regard!

 

[Keith_D]

This is common sense guys... there are some stuff out there that is not made as well as it should be.. or operate outside the range (specially power ) that keeps your camera healthy. Heck.. there is even some stuff out there that is wired backwards or made with cheap knock-off lemo connectors that have no Key and you can blow the whole thing up.

We are not trying to restrict.. we are trying to protect. We have no problem certifying 3rd party products for use with our cameras.. we do it all the time. but once we get a ton of complaints about a device that causes damages to cameras and the 3rd party manufacture doesn't want to take responsibility.. we need to step in.. to protect both of us.

The biggest issue is lens mounts and power. Another is Audio. Audio for some reason is probably the biggest clusterfuck of miss-match out there.. not sure why. and when you deal with phantom power and bad connections, miss-wired backwards cables or just bad board design, bad things can happen.

Jerred, where can I find a list of RED approved/certified 3rd party products?

 

[Keegan@Netflix]

Les,

I am not officially saying anything at this point besides reminding customers that if they use third party accessories they run the risk of voiding their warranty (as clearly stated in RED terms). We are currently investigating GMP batteries and our engineers are performing supplementary analysis on them currently and will communicating are findings when we have a full report.

Best Regards,

Michael - for RED to void his warranty due to the GMP battery, without examining it, they must have previous knowledge.

Maybe GMP batteries can put out a power surge, some design flaw, I don't know?

But, there has to be a basis for saying this caused a problem, other than 'not made by RED'.

Are you saying officially that GMP batteries are a product that 'damages cameras' - and will void your warranty?

Can you give us some info on how this happens?

I'd really like to understand batteries better (I read eetimes, and realize that lithium batteries are actually quite complex - they are NOT car batteries).

A detailed explanation would certainly help to explain why a RED battery is better engineered - to point out the flaws in batteries you have examined - and help us to better care for our cameras.

But, as a user in this forum, I thrive on information. That's why I'm here. To understand all this better.

So, please help me in that regard!

 

[Les C.]

Les,

I am not officially saying anything at this point besides reminding customers that if they use third party accessories they run the risk of voiding their warranty (as clearly stated in RED terms). We are currently investigating GMP batteries and our engineers are performing supplementary analysis on them currently and will communicating are findings when we have a full report.

Best Regards,

But by voiding that gentleman's warranty for using GMP (heresay, I wasn't there), that is directly communicating something very different than what you are saying.

Many of us own products that cost > $30K such as our cars. Using a defectively designed oil filter would certainly void the warranty, but .... hardly anyone uses a Lexus oil filter.

A long time ago, I owned with two other guys a small 72 person company that manufactured UNIX and p-System computers (the fastest super-micro in the world, at that time).

I know a bit about warranty issues with computers. The Scarlet/Epic are high powered computers.

Semiconductors exhibit a bathtub shaped curve of mortality, with high infant mortality.

Most of that happens within the first few months (actually sooner than that), and then it levels off for a very long time.

So, a certain number of your boards will fail, a mathematical certainty, all on their own, due to no fault of their owners.

If you blame that gentleman's failure on GMP, you either have a valid reason, or you don't.

But, it's one or the other, and it would apply to any GMP user.

Thankfully, I don't even have a rig yet, so ... this is just a learning experience for me.

But, I do want to believe that other users are treated fairly and with respect (I love the RED concept, but ... I'm not a cool-aide drinker).

I don't have enough information (partly because that thread was pulled), but this doesn't feel right.

 

[Gavin Greenwalt]

From a consumer rights standpoint keep in mind that RED can only void the warranty for third party parts that actually damaged the device. So for instance if you add a top handle and your sensor has a glitch consumer protection laws say RED would have to demonstrate how a handle could damage your sensor.

This is similar to those "Warranty Void if Removed" stickers. Those from a legal standpoint are nothing but scare tactics. If you open your desktop and replace the hard drive but your LCD dies the next week they can't void your screen warranty for replacing a hard drive (unless they show how replacing the hard drive could fry a video card).

But in the case of batteries, bad power can cause lots of problems. I had a bad power supply in a computer once which made me unplug the keyboard on boot or it would freeze. Go figure.

 

[Gunleik Groven]

This is new to me, but

We've had no issues with GMP batteries on our R1s

On our Epics, they've been more flaky...

Good to have an official statement somewhere on this, though...

 

[Meryem Ersoz]

But Red has provided the necessary information in the user's guide. The wiring diagrams are there.

A professional tool by it's nature requires the user to handle it in a professional manner. Red could build in a fail safe I suppose, but as it stands the responsibility is on the user where it belongs.

Not really helpful - not every corresponding device comes with a wiring diagram to show how it's wired. Moreover, with so many users moving up to, say, SCARLET, from camcorder world, it's potentially alienating to the user base - I don't see the point in that. Professional means you make money with your camera or aspire to - or aspire to up your game, not check the wiring diagram.

As I see it, this is a thread about how RED can communicate more effectively with its user base on certain issues which have caused problems for them and for their users. I'm trying to offer some suggestions and encouragement. They can take it or leave it. Same as it ever was....

 

[Rodrigo Prata]

Is there a list of Aproved By RED" third part gear anywhere? I was going to buy the View Factor V mount plate for EPIC and Scarlet but now I`m not sure if I can. I`ve always heard that they are proved by RED, but now, how can I be sure?

Thanks

 

[Benjamin Zimbric]

From the guys whose warranty was voided I can say it wasn't a battery problem. I've used these batteries for years on dozens of cameras, no problem. The problem really from my point of view is that I don't know what the problem was. I sent in my camera with all power supplies I used. They both cost me hundreds of dollars (AB plate and XLR to lemo cable). I got an email from a RED representative saying that the fault was not mine. The next communication was an invoice for the repair because I had used a third party power source. I asked repeatedly what the fault actually was. I was told nothing. Those two power sources sit in my desk unused. I bought hundred of dollars in new power sources because I don't know what the problem was. I was lied to by the customer service representative (fault is not mine, I will get back to you about what our technicians identified as the problem), and charged for something I may or may not have done to my camera. All I know is I'm out the money (I had to pay to get my camera back) and I don't know why I had to pay.

Like I said before, I will not trust RED again. I realize now they are not here to help me. They didn't want to see my power source to help diagnose a problem. They wanted to see my power solutions so they could say, "This is out of warranty. Charge him."

Obviously the problem was something normal for RED to encounter. They had it fixed immediately.It was scheduled for shipment back to me. The rep told me it was shipping out the next morning. What scares me is that right before the shipment went out someone said, "He used a 3rd party power source." And then I got charged. For what reason I don't know.

 

[Scott Crawley]

I apparently use a more broad definition of a Professional than you do Meryem. Being professional is less about whether or not you can con some uneducated chump out of their money than it is about knowledge, ability and conduct. Any schmuck smart enough to hire a capable salesman can make money at just about any endeavor they choose.

Aspiring to be a professional does not make one a professional. If that were true any jackass with the desire to claim a title would be entitled to do it. I might aspire to be a professional... surgeon, but merely wanting it doesn't make it so.

Schematics can be found for any professional level audio device, and those are the caliber of device we are talking about. Those who are moving up from a prosumer camcorder to a professional cinema camera have to be able and willing to raise their game accordingly. That is the responsibility of the individual and it can't be put off on the manufacturer of the gear. If they don't it could cost them some money.

Knowing that they have a crossover product, might it be a wise move for Red to do what they can to ease the transition as best they can? Sure it would. I won't disagree with you there, but these are the hard truths as I see them.

Not really helpful - not every corresponding device comes with a wiring diagram to show how it's wired. Moreover, with so many users moving up to, say, SCARLET, from camcorder world, it's potentially alienating to the user base - I don't see the point in that. Professional means you make money with your camera or aspire to - or aspire to up your game, not check the wiring diagram.

As I see it, this is a thread about how RED can communicate more effectively with its user base on certain issues which have caused problems for them and for their users. I'm trying to offer some suggestions and encouragement. They can take it or leave it. Same as it ever was....

 

[Martin Weiss]

The original thread where I learned about GMP 'issues' was pulled (I guess by you).

Nope, didn't pull it. I tend to pull threads that discuss other cameras, threads were people get personal, off-topic posts and trolling posts.

As said, I am using GMP batteries from time to time, read the forum quite regularly, thus have a self-preserving intersting in finding out about troublesome batteries — but I cannot remember "many" threads on power problems with GMP. There were some where people simply would not get power on their Scarlet/Epic, but I do not remember a thread where damage to the camera was reported.

I don't know if you are referring to this non-pulled posts: http://reduser.net/forum/showthread...up-for-scarlet&p=990509&viewfull=1#post990509

 

[Lee Saxon]

My experience is that if you need to return something Red is going to leech every dime out of you they can, whether they call it a voided warranty or just a big restocking fee for some invisible scratches that won't stop them from selling an unused product again.

 

[Les C.]

Nope, didn't pull it. I tend to pull threads that discuss other cameras, threads were people get personal, off-topic posts and trolling posts.

As said, I am using GMP batteries from time to time, read the forum quite regularly, thus have a self-preserving intersting in finding out about troublesome batteries — but I cannot remember "many" threads on power problems with GMP. There were some where people simply would not get power on their Scarlet/Epic, but I do not remember a thread where damage to the camera was reported.

I don't know if you are referring to this non-pulled posts: http://reduser.net/forum/showthread...up-for-scarlet&p=990509&viewfull=1#post990509

Glad you are coming from the same position that I am, just trying to find the truth.

I don't remember seeing ANY users reporting power supply problems with GMP. I only initiated this thread as I saw several users reporting that RED had warned them their GMP products would invalidate their warranty - and that one user who did get his warranty invalidated.

Not sure about the thread I thought was pulled? I remember, incorrectly or otherwise, that he'd said his camera was being 'held hostage' - and I thought his wording might have gotten it pulled - as he seemed very upset. But, google doesn't show that, so - if no threads were pulled, my memory must be failing.

I just read Benjamin's description of his dealings with RED from two posts above, and ... I'm not sure what to think? I certainly don't want to voice my opinions about something for which I may not have all the details.

I do think we should be courteous, avoid inflammatory statements - and try to give RED and Benjamin the benefit of the doubt until the facts are clear.

But, this sort of issue (a warranty repair) may affect all of us at one point, so we really should pursue clarification, as (at least) I don't have a clear understanding of the situation at all.

 

[Benjamin Zimbric]

Please feel free to ask questions. I only wanted to tell my story so that others could avoid the issues and expense I have encountered. Am I upset? Yes. I would much rather take a nice trip somewhere with my wife than supply RED with my money. Is that business? Yes. I didn't come here for the fun and the cookies. Came here to make money. RED did too. I just want some answers for my money. That's all. Or I want my money back.

 

[Brent Carter]

Our policies on third party stuff have been the same since day one. You use third party solutions that damage your RED gear, it voids the warranty. And when we have identified a systemic problem with a certain third party part, we have advised users here. I am a little shocked to see so much surprise on this subject given status quo for 5 years?

RED quality control cannot control the integrity of every part a third party makes. I know, obvious. So, if there is a one-off part from a third party manufactured wrong or poorly and it damages your RED gear, we let you know. Through various diagnostic reports from our IQC team, we can pretty much pinpoint a smoking gun that caused damaged.

Benjamin, if you want more answers from RED, directly talk to RED, not indirectly to REDUSER. Call/email nick - dot - grow - at - red - dot - com - he manages product support including repair/RMA teams. Lee S, won't dignify that claim with a reply.

We don't discuss specifics of customer cases publicly. That is between RED and our customer.
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