view=raw and false color

[Dylan Macleod CSC]

Just upgraded to Build 17!

I am confused about something though. Stuart once said...
"... you can't meter via Spot Meter, Zebra or False Color meter with VIEW=RAW. On Build 16 these are tuned to REDspace, Build 17 REDspace or REC 709."

In the release notes for Build 17 it says;
"COLOR exposure meter display is inaccurate if VIEW is set to RAW."

So in my day to day, I have come to rely on False Color. If I see clipping, I use view=raw and false color to see if I am "really" clipping.

False color seems to respond as expected in that some highlights will show as not clipping when I look at RAW view - wheras they might have been clipping in a non- raw view mode.

So, the above two statements have me confused.

Can I not rely on view=raw in combination with false color as a method for "checking my neg"?

Otherwise, thanks for a fabulous upgrade RED!

 

[Dylan Macleod CSC]

Stuart?

Anyone?

 

[Scott Webster]

Stuart?

Anyone?

Dylan,

Further to your post.

A quick check today over the B17 menu. When the Histogram is set to RAW it does not stick. That is if you switch between Redspace and Raw the histogram shifts accordingly where I think the idea is that it should show what's happening in Raw at all times regardless of View applied.

The new color bar next to the traffic lights is suppose to be another Raw indicator. Check this post from Stuart:
http://www.reduser.net/forum/showpost.php?p=310411&postcount=49

 

[Dylan Macleod CSC]

Dylan,

Further to your post.

A quick check today over the B17 menu. When the Histogram is set to RAW it does not stick. That is if you switch between Redspace and Raw the histogram shifts accordingly where I think the idea is that it should show what's happening in Raw at all times regardless of View applied.

The new color bar next to the traffic lights is suppose to be another Raw indicator. Check this post from Stuart:
http://www.reduser.net/forum/showpost.php?p=310411&postcount=49

Hi Rocketeer

Thanks for the clarification. That seems to concur with what I believe - That when you select RAW view, the histogram changes to reflect the selection.

This is why I was confused by Stuart's statement "COLOR exposure meter display is inaccurate if VIEW is set to RAW". In fact it is accurate. It is showing you in the histogram what the RAW image is reading. Not the viewing space (I.E. Redspace). Same holds true in false color.

I think there are almost too many metering options - to the point of confusion - and potential problems in knowing how to judge levels. Why do we need an additional color bar showing what RAW is seeing?

I would almost prefer what you describe - that every readout of level measurement is reflective of what RAW is reading. Not that color bars are supposed to show RAW (but are currently not sticking ).

Further statements from Stuart that "you can't meter via Spot Meter, Zebra or False Color meter with VIEW=RAW. On Build 16 these are tuned to REDspace, Build 17 REDspace or REC 709." add to the confusion. Especially since that doesn't seem to be true?

This all leads to more potential for confusion.

Lets keep it simple!

 

[Stuart English]

RAW uncompressed

RAW uncompressed

This is why I was confused by Stuart's statement "COLOR exposure meter display is inaccurate if VIEW is set to RAW". In fact it is accurate. It is showing you in the histogram what the RAW image is reading. Not the viewing space (I.E. Redspace). Same holds true in false color.

But it does not hold true for False Color.

The Histogram does reflect the RAW values, the False Color does not. i.e. it has not been calibrated for RAW... just a word of caution.

 

[gbalaji]

Clarification needed!

Clarification needed!

But it does not hold true for False Color.

The Histogram does reflect the RAW values, the False Color does not. i.e. it has not been calibrated for RAW... just a word of caution.

Stuart

Is it possible to explain in details about the above statement!

 

[Dylan Macleod CSC]

But it does not hold true for False Color.

The Histogram does reflect the RAW values, the False Color does not. i.e. it has not been calibrated for RAW... just a word of caution.

Okay, like I said, confusion.

Why is it when I have a white that is clipping in REDSPACE (in false color) and then I click to RAW view, the false color reflects the change, and the white is no longer clipping?

 

[Stuart English]

False Color Meter

False Color Meter

Okay, like I said, confusion.

Why is it when I have a white that is clipping in REDSPACE (in false color) and then I click to RAW view, the false color reflects the change, and the white is no longer clipping?

What I am saying is that the False Color its not calibrated to VIEW = RAW... so be careful.

 

[Chris Parker]

good lord. is there not a straight answer to dylan's question out there somewhere? be careful?!? what does that mean?

i am firmly in agreement with dylan (and others) that this is confusing. I also agree that ALL metering options relate ONLY to the RAW view of what the sensor is seeing. Or at the very least, make them ALL accurate tools when view-RAW is selected. Who cares if the REDSpace view is clipping in false color? We want to know when the RAW is clipping....

 

[Dylan Macleod CSC]

What I am saying is that the False Color its not calibrated to VIEW = RAW... so be careful.

What is it calibrated for then?

When I select RAW it definitely reads differently than REDSPACE, so what is it telling me? By saying "be careful", do you mean that perhaps it is clipping?

Really confused now...

 

[Stuart English]

ViEW RAW and FALSE COLOR

ViEW RAW and FALSE COLOR

What is it calibrated for then?

When I select RAW it definitely reads differently than REDSPACE, so what is it telling me? By saying "be careful", do you mean that perhaps it is clipping?

Really confused now...

I know that it appears to react differently. But its not calibrated to the RAW data, its still working with REDspace or REC709 values.

So to recap, you can use the histogram to judge exposure when viewing RAW, but be careful with False Color. Its not accurate.

 

[Steve Sherrick]

I'm thinking that what you are seeing in the False Color mode when using Raw view is an interpretation but not an exact scientific representation of the raw sensor data. In other words, they haven't tuned it to specifically deal with all of the Raw values, and perhaps it's just an approximation of those values. Whereas with the other view modes they have been tuned to the the LUTs and are accurately representing those values within those parameters.

Hope that's not even more confusing. And I'm of course just speculating.

EDIT: Stuart beat me to it and offered the explanation.

 

[Stuart English]

Metering

Metering

Who cares if the REDSpace view is clipping in false color?

Different people want to know different things, so its equally valid to meter.

We want to know when the RAW is clipping....

You do, that's the function of the RAW meter between the Histogram and the Traffic Lights....

 

[Scott Webster]

Just to clear up a couple of points...

B17
Video
AV Menu
View>RedSpace
Viewfinder>Meters>Analysis Meter>Raw Hist

What I would expect when making this selection is that the Histogram as shown on the LCD would always reflect what is happening to the Raw image, regardless of the setting in AV Menu>View. It doesn't. The histogram changes when toggling between an assigned 'Raw View' User button and the current AV Menu>View.

This is no different to having the Analysis Meter>Luma Hist and hot buttoning between Redspace and a 'Raw View' User button. The Histogram changes to each view. Would be good to have a dedicated locked in Raw Histogram regardless of AV Menu>View.

Good to know that False Color is not calibrated to the Raw view.

Skip, I'd say a lot of quick turn around jobs rarely get posted as RAW. 709, or Redspace are used as the onelight (or only light!) I can understand why options are in place.

Note: Is it possible to move False Color and Edge Highlight into separate menus? This would allow us to User Assign to separate buttons!

 

[Dylan Macleod CSC]

Would this be an accurate way to sum it up?

HISTOGRAM
Accurately reads levels when toggling between “VIEWNG SPACE” and “RAW VIEW”.

FALSE COLOR
“VIEWNG SPACE” versus “RAW VIEW” will read differently but “RAW VIEW” in false color does not read accurate levels (or is “not tuned” to RAW).

STOP LIGHTS
Like the histogram will accurately display levels when toggling between “VIEWNG SPACE” and “RAW VIEW”.

COLOR BAR
Basically a RAW indicator display, regardless of viewing space.



I guess my love affair with False Color is over. I can't trust a meter that I have to "be careful" with and that is "not tuned to RAW". Is this information published anywhere in the manual? This is a pretty important piece of information regarding metering. Users shouldn't have to sift through thousands of posts to discover that a tool that they have come to rely on is not accurate.

 

[Chris Parker]

I say tune False Color for RAW view should be a feature in Build 18. Any takers?

 

[Dylan Macleod CSC]

I honestly would prefer something really simple.

Like the histogram with color overlay that tells me when a particular channel is clipping. I would like that readout to be a measurement of as close to the "RAW" as possible

The built in "safety" margins of all the various viewing spaces are not useful to me.

I am a big boy now and can handle the reality of working within the parameters of a particular medium.

The difficulty in all these various metering options creates confusion. I'll figure it out - don't worry about me - but I think it doesn't need to be this complicated.

I understand different viewing options are useful, but jeez - false color (but don't believe it when viewing raw), color bar (for raw view), histogram, changes according to viewing space, spot meter, stop lights, and on and on...

I don't mean to sound ingrateful for offering options - i have found false color incredibly useful - until i realised - from this thread - that it in fact is not doing what I thought it was...

It is scary as a DP to find out that your meter hasn't been working accurately!

Perhaps for the first time on REDUSER someone is asking...for less!

 

[Nick Shaw]

I feel that the significance of the various colour 'bands' in false colour when viewing RAW is less important than whether purple indicates RAW clipping or not. Does it?

When talking about 'tuning' the false colour view for RAW, does that mean it needs calibrating such that each colour band represents one stop, as it does normally, but that clipping is already accurately indicated? Or is the information given currently meaningless?

 

[Dylan Macleod CSC]

I feel that the significance of the various colour 'bands' in false colour when viewing RAW is less important than whether purple indicates RAW clipping or not. Does it?

When talking about 'tuning' the false colour view for RAW, does that mean it needs calibrating such that each colour band represents one stop, as it does normally, but that clipping is already accurately indicated? Or is the information given currently meaningless?

This is part of the confusion I am experiencing based on Stuart's statements.

From what I understand...when viewing false color and "RAW VIEW" you can not rely on the information being displayed as accurate. As Stuart has said - "be careful".

Like I said, I can't rely on a meter that I have to "be careful" with, so I, personally am going to change how I check the RAW view to make sure highlights are protected. Probably with the new color bar feature.

...just when I had gotten used to a new tool - false color - I have to abandon it.

 

[Blair S. Paulsen]

Toggle me

Toggle me

IMHO false color has the makings of the greatest exposure tool I have ever seen, by a wide margin. Please calibrate it to every possible view mode and let me select as needed.

Perhaps my working style is unusual but just to put it out there:

I select RedSPACE (or 709 if appropriate) and do most of the normal set up procedures in a human visual system friendly environment. As I go along I would like WITH ONE BUTTON PUSH to toggle the monitor image, all (or most) of the metering, the false color, etc over to RAW view to check for clipping or other specific issues then toggle back. (Perhaps an on screen prompt with the word RAW in large type so anyone on set with a monitor is informed of the status.)

Cheers