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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Video Assist on Set

Just curious how the eCinema LCDs would stack up against a decent CRT studio monitor. I'm not convinced that an 8bit color gamut on an LCD display is adequate for broadcast/film color grading. Then again, the latest 3rd-gen Samsung 30" panels being used by HP (and Dell any day now, and hopefully Apple very soon too) supposedly can show over 92% of the NTSC gamut. Also, does their DCM23 adjust it's refresh rate to match the fps of the input signal. I'd seriously consider something like this to replace my 13" Sony "HD" crt monitor if the color was close and it could properly display 24p without judder.
 
8, 10 , 12 bit displays

8, 10 , 12 bit displays

They are larger, but check out the "9 series" plasmas from Panasonic. My contacts there confirm that the glass is driven at 12 bit resolution. So 10 bit log video over HD-SDI should look pretty good.

Approx $8K for 52" with HD-SDI input (single link only unfortunately) option.

TH-50PF9UK 1920 x 1080, also pretty good TH-37PH9UK 1024 x 768
 
Monitor anyone

Monitor anyone

Monitoring options I am considering for the RedOne and RedCine. The high cost, weight, energy usage and declining availablity of CRTs has led me to look at LCDs. The black levels have gotten much better on some LCDs and the resolution is typically excellent, with spot on geometrics. On my list-

The Panasonic BT series 26" LCD (IMHO the 17" lacks contrast):
Pros - has HD-SDI inputs, component ins, darn good blacks for an LCD, is built for professional use with a nice casing, includes a PIP scope for checking levels
Cons - limited to 768 by 1366 resolution, $5K list price, kinda big for field use

CineTal:
Pros: pretty decent image and some interesting workflow options that as I remember utilize an Iridias sloution. LUT management is a critical factor for digitial cinema applications and they seem to have the most evolved solution currently out there. If I am wrong about that I would love to be educated by anyone out there who has more experience in this area.
Cons: by the time you add the options that make it a true digital cinema solution the price gets over $10K quick

eCinema:
Pros: by far the best LCD image I have ever seen, at 23" and 19lbs. it is small enough for most field use, they promise that their calibration is so good it will match every other eCinema display anywhere, it exactly matches most professional frame rates. FFI:

http://www.ecinemasys.com/products/dcm23/dcm23_specs.htm

Cons: List price is around $17K (note they are running a promotion right now that drops the cost to less than half that)

I hope I don't sound like a shill for eCinema but they are aiming at the digital cinema crowd, which is us. See one for yourself, the image benefits from the best blacks I have ever seen this side of a CRT. Their boast of being able to match color via high level self-calibration tech could be a real benefit in many work-group situations.

The Red Team has promised LUT options driven by the metadata that sound terrific. Perhaps its time for a thread devoted to color look up tables? Accurate and easy to implement LUTs are a holy grail in my mind - if the RedOne can be a compliant partner in this quest it will have achieved yet another important milestone in the transition to electronic cinematography.

When it cost as much as a RedOne camera body the eCinema DCM23 struck me as rental only but if I can get one for under $7K it just might have my name on it. It sure could be a great reference monitor for putting the RedOne through its paces.
 
Just curious how the eCinema LCDs would stack up against a decent CRT studio monitor. I'm not convinced that an 8bit color gamut on an LCD display is adequate for broadcast/film color grading. Then again, the latest 3rd-gen Samsung 30" panels being used by HP (and Dell any day now, and hopefully Apple very soon too) supposedly can show over 92% of the NTSC gamut. Also, does their DCM23 adjust it's refresh rate to match the fps of the input signal. I'd seriously consider something like this to replace my 13" Sony "HD" crt monitor if the color was close and it could properly display 24p without judder.
The original NTSC primaries (the exact set of colors/chromaticities of red, green and blue) is pretty much obsolete.

In current practice, you have SMPTE C (for NTSC countries) and EBU (for PAL countries) for standard definition resolution, and Rec. 709 for HD resolutions (both NTSC and PAL countries). The only place where NTSC gamut is used is in adobe photoshop, where it's the adobe color space; and that's print work, which isn't really relevant.

In terms of overall gamut, the CRT is 'limited' by flaring in its glass. If the CRT is putting out a lot of light, there will be more flare. I don't believe this is a big deal. Whereas I presume that an ecinemasys LCD would be limited by its black level.

In terms of bit depth, CRTs should have a slight advantage. LCDs lose performance after calibration LUTs (which they need to implement). Other factors are probably a lot more important... i.e. resolution (LCDs are better here), ability to display interlace (CRT+), good at multiple resolutions (CRT+), no calibration drift (LCD+), etc.
 
Stuart English said:
They are larger, but check out the "9 series" plasmas from Panasonic. My contacts there confirm that the glass is driven at 12 bit resolution. So 10 bit log video over HD-SDI should look pretty good.
Click to expand...

Some of the new Samsung and Pioneer plasma models take in 10bit or better via HDMI (better than 10bit with HDMI v1.3) and process internally at 12 to 16bit for display.

But if anyone wants details on how to donate to my "buy Jeff a 65inch Panny 9UK model plasma with HDMI and SDI interface boards" just drop me a PM. :D
 
Blair S. Paulsen said:
CineTal:
Pros: pretty decent image and some interesting workflow options that as I remember utilize an Iridias sloution. LUT management is a critical factor for digitial cinema applications and they seem to have the most evolved solution currently out there. If I am wrong about that I would love to be educated by anyone out there who has more experience in this area.
Cons: by the time you add the options that make it a true digital cinema solution the price gets over $10K quick
Click to expand...

We have a couple of the CineTal Cinemage 2142 monitors with WFM. I think the image is better than the eCinema (but very close). The waveform monitoring capabilities are great in the field. I think you will find the LUT capabilities very useful for seeing your "one-light" grading in realtime. We also use it as a dual link RGB switcher, since you can get it with two dual link inputs and one dual link output. It also has a 12v option. A cool box that serves many needs in the field, but as you point out they are a bit expensive. However when you add up the cost of all the boxes we replaced (Moniter, WFM, Switcher, LUT box, etc) it is actually a pretty good deal. We have found them to be quite rugged out in the field.
 
outputs

outputs

Stuart English said:
I agree a good thread.

I'm going to repeat an earlier post, as some of our actual capabilities seem to be getting lost in translation..

We have "dual link" HD-SDI outputs - always clean feed and can only show the active recording area. These two HD-SDI outputs also include embedded audio and timecode.

Then we independently have a signal that is represented physically as both an HDMI and an HD-SDI (lets call it HD Preview to avoid confusion with the other HD-SDI outputs) signal. While in shot setup or recording it shows the record area + look around area, its understood that its desireable to also have some degree of user selection / control over programmable frame guide overlays, and these also have embedded digital audio plus timecode.

If you choose to hang a Miranda off of the HD Preview (HD-SDI) output you should get a decent NTSC/PAL feed with burnt in timecode..

Then we have EVF and LCD display, both of which can "show everything" i.e the EVF and LCD feeds both have fully programmable frame guide lines..
Click to expand...



Thank you Stuart,
please don't mess with the clean Daul Stream HD SDI
outs with embedded T/code & Audio. Don't we need em for a portable
DDR option or 120 FPS recording to some kind of external device?
The HD Preview option sounds great with overlays and also embedded
audio & T/code for possible on-set rough cut HD editorial.
Down stream down conversion to SD should be left up to the user or
Video Village people if required. I was hoping Red would push us towards
a Digital and HD on-set viewing result that would become the new standard
over time.
This looks great.

Mezmo
 
Stuart English said:
Somewhere else I'd stated that the HDMI and Preview HD-SDI were always 720p - either 720p/50 or 720p/60. The reason for that is in effect there are two "viewfinder" output pairs - EVF and LCD, then HDMI and Preview HD-SDI; each pair having slightly differerent frame refresh, LUT and graphics support. As an HD-SDI signal, 720p has the advantage of being able to represent 4.5K 60fps images. If we had chosen to use 1080p we'd be limited to only 30fps.

In addition we also have "dual link" HD-SDI which are clean feed outputs at either 720p or 1080p resolution depending on what you are recording. As they are clean feeds these support LUTs but have no graphic overlay capabilities.
Click to expand...

Okay. Recording is done. I'm a little indie with no video cart guy, and I want to play back off of the camera to a 1080i/1080p monitor off the HDMI port. Does this mean I am SOL and only able to the output off of the HDMI in 720p--even though I am not recording at the same time?

Could we modify the setup screens as wished for earlier to say:

HDMI Record output: 720p

HDMI Playback output: 720p / 1080i / 1080p

and it plays it back at your base speed (24fps/30fps) regardless of what speed it was recorded at?

I would really not like to be forced to take the redcode footage back to a laptop and let it CRUNCH for a while just to see the playback on a stunning 1080p monitor.

Or, when I first take the camera home and shoot some footage of my kids, I want to be able to run into my living room--trying no to trip, plug it into the HDMI port of my Sony xsrd 60" and see the best picture possible--only seconds after I shot it (720p just doesn't cut it!)
 
Monitor Glass

Monitor Glass

If Samsung et al can deliver 10 bit glass (maybe by NAB?) that will be a great step forward, but as I understand it CineTal and e-Cinema etc use 8 bit glass. All I was saying was Panasonic 9 series plasmas claim 12 bit resolution glass. Maybe others do that too, I can't comment on that.

The "10/ 12 / 16 bit" numbers quoted in flat panel display literature may only describe the image processing circuits that follow the HD-SDI or HDMI inputs - not the final drive to the glass itself, and they need to be treated with due caution. (It would be similar to quoting a 16 / 24 / 32 bit camcorder DSP resolution and not mentioning the recording section's 8 bit resolution)

Bottom line: ask the right questions to all your potential flat panel panel vendors... make sure that the bit resolution that you think is there, really is.
 
Dual Link

Dual Link

Dual Link HD-SDI is always / will always be a clean feed, no frame lines, no graphics.
 
Or the AJA equivalent. THere's a few SDI to HDMI converters around now.

Graeme
 
AppliedVisual said:
Just curious how the eCinema LCDs would stack up against a decent CRT studio monitor. I'm not convinced that an 8bit color gamut on an LCD display is adequate for broadcast/film color grading.
Click to expand...

Hi,

I thought CRT's were also displayed 8 bit? could be wrong through!
What I found interesting about the Ecinema display was that multiple screens were identical. I have never seen this with CRT's

Stephen
 
CRT's are capable of >8bit, but I'd guess that also depends on the input and the circuitry.
 
Stuart English said:
The "10/ 12 / 16 bit" numbers quoted in flat panel display literature may only describe the image processing circuits that follow the HD-SDI or HDMI inputs - not the final drive to the glass itself, and they need to be treated with due caution. (It would be similar to quoting a 16 / 24 / 32 bit camcorder DSP resolution and not mentioning the recording section's 8 bit resolution)
Click to expand...

Yep. I know that most plasma displays on the market, even those that are a few generations old now, have 10/12/14/etc... bit internal processing. But the actual output or final drive to the glass is probably less than that. Often, manufacturers (LCD, plasma or other) don't like to disclose such things. I know the new Pioneer Elite and NEC glass is better than 8bit, but I don't know if that means 10bit or 12bit. Samsung is claiming 12bit glass on their upcoming models this year... I don't know if they showed any at CES or if we have to wait for NAB or what. The new models probably won't ship until June / July anyway.

Currently, the Panny 9 series (which also means the 60U/600U/600Z panels) do drive their glass at 12bits. The color on them is great, but there's also some things I personally don't like about Panny plasmas... Their internal processing tends to over-soften the image and the "clay face" artifacting is often problematic and can't be entirely compensated for. On the 9UK "pro" models, there are more controls for adjustments and the ability to add SDI input among other things. But the color on these panels is amazing... A good BluRay or HD-DVD transfer playing on a Panny 600Z 65" 1080p plasma is stunning.
 
Stuart English said:
Graeme is correct, there is also an AJA product

www.aja.com/html/products_converters_HI5.html
Click to expand...

Input formats on that model are: 525i, 625i, 720p 50/59.94/60, 1080i 50/59.94/60

No 1080p input...

---------------------------
Blackmagic HD Link converter standards:

HD Format Support via DVI-D = 1080p23.98, 1080PsF23.98, 1080p24, 1080PsF24, 1080p25, 1080p30, 1080i48, 1080i50, 1080i59.94, 1080i60, 720p50, 720p59.94, 720p60

HD Format Support via HDMI = 1080p25, 1080i50, 1080i59.94, 1080i60, 720p50, 720p59.94, 720p60

----------------------------------------


Workflow scenario question: A lot of RED One users will be shooting stock footage and quickly shipping it off to their reps. Lets say I've shot stock footage in 4k REDCODE RAW in camera at 24fps and 30fps, and 2k REDCODE RAW at 60fps, and I want to simply spot check the footage on a DVI-D equipped LCD, or alternately an HDMI equipped HDTV, before dumping a copy of the footage off to an HDD to ship to my stock footage marketer, who will use REDCINE to process footage for licensing out. Workflow for spot checking the footage?
 
Graeme Nattress said:
CRT's are capable of >8bit, but I'd guess that also depends on the input and the circuitry.
Click to expand...

Input and internal circuitry most definitely... I question the >8bit on a lot of CRTs these days because they're all digital internally and often use similar or the same processing and display driving circuitry as plasma displays. Plasmas use the same phosphors as CRTs, it's just a matter of electrostatically charging a gas mixture to release UV light and excite the screen phosphors (plasma) vs. a scanning electron beam to do the same (CRT). CRT displays have their own share of issues too... On Aperture Grille displays you have annoying "support wires", low phosphor persistence, etc... Shadow mask displays often have a softer image with warmer, richer color but have a harder time maintaining consistant color or avoiding splotches.
 
Spot Checks

Spot Checks

Gibby, this begs three questions -

a) where are you, and what monitor do you have with you?

b) is this playback from the camera itself or playbakc from REDCINE?

c) What do you want to see when you spot check the footage?
 
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