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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Video Assist on Set

I agree a good thread.

I'm going to repeat an earlier post, as some of our actual capabilities seem to be getting lost in translation..

We have "dual link" HD-SDI outputs - always clean feed and can only show the active recording area. These two HD-SDI outputs also include embedded audio and timecode.

Then we independently have a signal that is represented physically as both an HDMI and an HD-SDI (lets call it HD Preview to avoid confusion with the other HD-SDI outputs) signal. While in shot setup or recording it shows the record area + look around area, its understood that its desireable to also have some degree of user selection / control over programmable frame guide overlays, and these also have embedded digital audio plus timecode.

If you choose to hang a Miranda off of the HD Preview (HD-SDI) output you should get a decent NTSC/PAL feed with burnt in timecode..

Then we have EVF and LCD display, both of which can "show everything" i.e the EVF and LCD feeds both have fully programmable frame guide lines..
 
Stuart, Graeme;

I agree with the the above, except that I think the "HD Preview" and the EVF/LCD should all share the same display options, independent of each other. Ie, in the menus, for each "overlay" option, you'd have the option of displaying it on "LCD", "EVF" and "Ext" (for Ext. Monitor).

You guys didn't mention of the "HD Preview" would be 720 or 1080?

Another option, for us geeks like me... XML files on the SD cards, for each display device (EVF, LCD, EXT) that would specify the options and the display positions (for things like timecode, audio meters, etc). :-) I gotta dream!
 
Hi Stuart,

I've just read through this whole thread and what you have suggested (twice now) would seem to meet the needs of the commercial shoot guys. I hope one or more of them confirms that before my head explodes!

Best regards, Phil
 
Preview HD-SDI

Preview HD-SDI

Somewhere else I'd stated that the HDMI and Preview HD-SDI were always 720p - either 720p/50 or 720p/60. The reason for that is in effect there are two "viewfinder" output pairs - EVF and LCD, then HDMI and Preview HD-SDI; each pair having slightly differerent frame refresh, LUT and graphics support. As an HD-SDI signal, 720p has the advantage of being able to represent 4.5K 60fps images. If we had chosen to use 1080p we'd be limited to only 30fps.

In addition we also have "dual link" HD-SDI which are clean feed outputs at either 720p or 1080p resolution depending on what you are recording. As they are clean feeds these support LUTs but have no graphic overlay capabilities.
 
Stuart English said:
I'm going to repeat an earlier post, as some of our actual capabilities seem to be getting lost in translation...
Click to expand...

Yes Stuart, I believe we would be in good shape with these options. (I agree with kylemallory that it would be ideal to have the menu settings to allow for control over which outputs have framelines and which type of frameline overlays each individual output has showing.

Menu Settings could possibly function this way (options in brackets) depending on what is possible.

HD-SDI is shown here as one example, and I'm sure I've left many things out... :) :

Output Settings:
HD-SDI:
Output Mode: [720p]
[1080p (not possible?)]

Viewable Area: [4.5K (2540p) Scaled]
[4K (2304p) Scaled]
[2K (1152p) Scaled]
[1080p]
[720p]

Framelines: [ON]
[OFF]

Framelines Aspect:
4:3 [ON] [OFF]
16:9 [ON] [OFF]
1.85 [ON] [OFF]
2.35 [ON] [OFF]
2.39 [ON] [OFF]
3.0 [ON] [OFF]
Etc. [ON] [OFF]
User Defined Aspect [H:W]

Look Around Area Opacity:
User Defined [0%-100%]


Just some ideas... I hope this is helpful.
 
Though it's already been mentioned elsewhere many times, user selectable TIFF / PSD overlay support on SD-cards would be truly fantastic. If these custom-made graphics can be overlaid on the outputs (selectable for guide-purpouse only or actually recoded with), I think we can solve the issue discussed here or better yet make other hundreds of possibilities --- 1.33, 1.78, 1.85, 2.35, 3.00 - all the usual aspect ratios, custom frame lines, test patterns, logos, stations bugs, instant composites, et cetera..
 
Casey Green said:
Yes Stuart, I believe we would be in good shape with these options. (I agree with kylemallory that it would be ideal to have the menu settings to allow for control over which outputs have framelines and which type of frameline overlays each individual output has showing.

Menu Settings could possibly function this way (options in brackets) depending on what is possible.

HD-SDI is shown here as one example, and I'm sure I've left many things out... :) :

Output Settings:
HD-SDI:
Output Mode: [720p]
[1080p (not possible?)]

Viewable Area: [4.5K (2540p) Scaled]
[4K (2304p) Scaled]
[2K (1152p) Scaled]
[1080p]
[720p]

Framelines: [ON]
[OFF]

Framelines Aspect:
4:3 [ON] [OFF]
16:9 [ON] [OFF]
1.85 [ON] [OFF]
2.35 [ON] [OFF]
2.39 [ON] [OFF]
3.0 [ON] [OFF]
Etc. [ON] [OFF]
User Defined Aspect [H:W]

Look Around Area Opacity:
User Defined [0%-100%]


Just some ideas... I hope this is helpful.
Click to expand...


Genius! Pure Genius.
 
Again...this thread functioned like a tech thread should...everyone put up suggestions based on their experience...and it progressed to some effective conclusions...

Good stuff...
 
saru said:
Though it's already been mentioned elsewhere many times, user selectable TIFF / PSD overlay support on SD-cards would be truly fantastic. If these custom-made graphics can be overlaid on the outputs (selectable for guide-purpouse only or actually recoded with), I think we can solve the issue discussed here or better yet make other hundreds of possibilities --- 1.33, 1.78, 1.85, 2.35, 3.00 - all the usual aspect ratios, custom frame lines, test patterns, logos, stations bugs, instant composites, et cetera..
Click to expand...

This will be my "dream come true".
Thanks to remind again this feature...
 
Casey Green said:
Yes Stuart, I believe we would be in good shape with these options. (I agree with kylemallory that it would be ideal to have the menu settings to allow for control over which outputs have framelines and which type of frameline overlays each individual output has showing.

Menu Settings could possibly function this way (options in brackets) depending on what is possible.

HD-SDI is shown here as one example, and I'm sure I've left many things out... :) :

Output Settings:
HD-SDI:
Output Mode: [720p]
[1080p (not possible?)]

Viewable Area: [4.5K (2540p) Scaled]
[4K (2304p) Scaled]
[2K (1152p) Scaled]
[1080p]
[720p]

Framelines: [ON]
[OFF]

Framelines Aspect:
4:3 [ON] [OFF]
16:9 [ON] [OFF]
1.85 [ON] [OFF]
2.35 [ON] [OFF]
2.39 [ON] [OFF]
3.0 [ON] [OFF]
Etc. [ON] [OFF]
User Defined Aspect [H:W]

Look Around Area Opacity:
User Defined [0%-100%]


Just some ideas... I hope this is helpful.
Click to expand...

This idea is perfect. The ability to create your own aspect ratio would be fantastic and just another thing that would keep RED above the curve and future proof.
 
1080 for monitoring matters

1080 for monitoring matters

Stuart English said:
(snip) As an HD-SDI signal, 720p has the advantage of being able to represent 4.5K 60fps images. If we had chosen to use 1080p we'd be limited to only 30fps. (snip)
Click to expand...

Since this is a feedback forum I gotta tell you that placing the priority on retaining the "advantage" of being able to represent 4.5k@60fps in 720 world was more important than being limited to 30fps in 1080 makes little sense to me. What percentage of material do you imagine will be shot at the data rates that 4.5k@60fps would require? Since that format cannot be encoded in camera wouldn't that generate an uncompressed data stream of over a GByte per second? Having read a lot of posts on these forums I percieve that format will get very little usage, especially in the next two years.

I feel like the more critical issue is having a 1080 monitoring signal that will give me a better look at critical focus than 720 can. I can also blow up that 1080 signal on a larger monitor to get a more realistic sense of scale without getting soft.

Please tell me there are other engineering advantages to using 720 out of the HDMI and HD-SDI Preview taps instead of 1080. You guys are juggling chainsaws on a highwire with this whole project and I respect the hell out of you but this I don't get.
 
Use of 720p for some internal processing would be to avoid the evils and complexity of interlace.
 
Use of 720p for HD Preview monitoring

Use of 720p for HD Preview monitoring

Remember, you can get 1080p out the "dual link" HD-SDI port.

The choice of 720p as the HD Preview resolution is based on -

a) Frame Rates
For 31 fps to 60fps when recording 720p, 1080, 2K or 4K what do you do?
For 61 - 120fps when recording 720p, 2K what do you do?
Using 720p as the output resolution gives us a much better representation of motion than using 1080p at a max of 30fps would.


b) Monitor sizes
Most battery powered field monitors are XGA resolution 1024 x 768. It'll be the rare exception when you'll have space for a 1080p projector or plasma.
But if you do have the space, using the dual link HD-SDI at 1080p, and perhaps an HD-SDI to DVI converter will resolve that issue.


c) Focus
Judging critical focus isn't much different when using 720p or 1080p. That's also an EVF / LCD function, and for those outputs we have focus assist.

d) Framing
Framing and client feed again don't need maximum resolution, but they do need apropriate frame rate.


Usual caveat - all specifications subject to change.
 
In focus

In focus

Stuart, thanks for the responses - hope I was't too hostile. What was not clear to me in the earlier post was that the move to 1080 would flush all monitoring over 30fps, not just 4.5k.

It is hard for me, and likely others, to get comfortable with the power of a focus assist tech we have never seen. We trust you, we really do, but for us, getting the focus wrong is such a huge issue. I feel like 1080 monitoring is more insurance on set than 720.

I recently upgraded my digital projection from 720 (actually 768) to 1080 and on an 80" screen I see the difference (of course the blacks are also much better but that is a discussion for a different forum).

Looking forward to seeing the focus assist in action and laughing about this then :)
 
Stuart English said:
a) Frame Rates
For 31 fps to 60fps when recording 720p, 1080, 2K or 4K what do you do?
For 61 - 120fps when recording 720p, 2K what do you do?
Using 720p as the output resolution gives us a much better representation of motion than using 1080p at a max of 30fps would.
Click to expand...

...but HDMI does support 1080p @ 60fps. Moving away from HDMI back to full DVI spec allows for 720p/768p @ 120Hz too.

Sorry, but that was a nit I had to pick.
 
eCinema deals

eCinema deals

I don't know how many of you are familar with eCinema monitors but they are running a special right now on their DCM23. I don't want this to be a sales thing and I have no association with them other than I always liked their monitors but thought they were overpriced.

I'll stop now so Jarred (hopefully) doesn't have to delete this. If I have violated any forum rules I apologize in advance.
 
Blair S. Paulsen said:
I don't know how many of you are familar with eCinema monitors but they are running a special right now on their DCM23. I don't want this to be a sales thing and I have no association with them other than I always liked their monitors but thought they were overpriced.

I'll stop now so Jarred (hopefully) doesn't have to delete this. If I have violated any forum rules I apologize in advance.
Click to expand...

Hi,

Saw them at IBC 2 years ago, the best I have seen to date.

Stephen
 
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