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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Video Assist on Set

Keep the customer satisfied

Keep the customer satisfied

I have spent many hours trying to construct the most efficent workflows for the RedOne camera system based on the minimum capabilities I can anticipate from the statements of the RedTeam so far. My plan includes a support van with computers, drives, monitors and at least one cart that can roll outside the van. I am figuring that the van will drive video village both by wire and wireless using the HDMI feed from the camera either wired or wireless depending on the logistics (and the as yet untested wireless HDMI system). If necessary I would assign one Mac to add frame lines and function as a DDR for immediate playback.

One of the van's primary functions would be to copy the data off the mags (RedDrives) for copying (x3) and verification so they could be erased and returned to set. I also imagine that some directors would want to do a rough cut so I would have a station for an edit guy. I plan to have a 1080p projector in the van for the DoP to check the image. Depending on the pace of the day the DoP could even have me tweak the image in RedCine and show him the results on the projected image and add that look to the metadata for reference by the colorist.

I am even thinking about an EZ-Up style tent that created a video village option off the side of the van with a 8 foot wide projected image, of course that may be a little mad.
 
Graeme Nattress said:
Sounds like these people who are back-seat driving on commercials don't trust the professionals operating the camera. Stephen's comment is a good one.
Graeme
Click to expand...

This can be true, but remember lots and lots of money is at stake and many people on commercials have little experience with any kind of production. I've had clients ask me if the crosshairs would be on the final image !

For the most part I've received a lots of respect and trust, you get this by heading off problems before they happen, which includes having a good quality flexible monitoring situation for the director, agency and clients. It's like the Producer, Director and DP are on stage and they are putting on a show that is designed to build a nice fuzzy feeling of creative consensus.

A dedicated video person will continue to be involved who may or may not be able to handle HD or generate framelines. But can record and play back SD and usually can do vari-speed and simple editing / comping.

I would try to avoid a situation where video playback in HD was expected from the camera at the agency's beck and call. The shoot would grind to a halt. But it would be very handy to be able to do it when you need to.

I think we got that.

How about a 3rd onboard monitor/ evf output? a special cable could split out the video signal with user controlled information / framelines / camera settings. This could feed video village. Kind of plays into the super modular-ness of the Red that we are all so jacked up on.

Matt Uhry
www.mattuhry.com
 
That's why it's great to get input from you Matt. Because of the way RED is designed, and it's price, it's going to be used in a very wide range of ways, some of which we may not have thought of. That's why I really appreciate the time you take to post back with comments and even put up with my sense of humour.

Your point about their being a show that is recorded, and a meta-show where the producer, director and dp are putting on a show for the creatives is a very good way to illustrate your point.

Graeme
 
This is exactly what myself and a few other commercial Director/DPs I know are trying to fight with the data centric workflow. The HVX is great in this regard because it allows us to play back the correct timebase on shots for the client/agency without having to use a dedicated video playback guy. However it's goinng to be hard to get them to come over on the larger shoots, at least till Red is more ubiquitous.
 
Advertising configuraton

Advertising configuraton

" I usually have active reticules for 16x9, 90% safe, and 4x3 active all at once. Furthermore, it helps to have the reticules available on at least two external taps in addition to the EVF, so that an LCD mounted on an arm and a feed to a video village can each see the frameline information"

Understood. And understood that there will be many different setups for different applications, but for this one at least - if we can do all this plus provide a clean HD-SDI feed for recording to DDR / VTR we're good ?
 
Matt Uhry said:
This can be true, but remember lots and lots of money is at stake and many people on commercials have little experience with any kind of production. I've had clients ask me if the crosshairs would be on the final image !

For the most part I've received a lots of respect and trust, you get this by heading off problems before they happen, which includes having a good quality flexible monitoring situation for the director, agency and clients. It's like the Producer, Director and DP are on stage and they are putting on a show that is designed to build a nice fuzzy feeling of creative consensus.

A dedicated video person will continue to be involved who may or may not be able to handle HD or generate framelines. But can record and play back SD and usually can do vari-speed and simple editing / comping.

I would try to avoid a situation where video playback in HD was expected from the camera at the agency's beck and call. The shoot would grind to a halt. But it would be very handy to be able to do it when you need to.

I think we got that.

How about a 3rd onboard monitor/ evf output? a special cable could split out the video signal with user controlled information / framelines / camera settings. This could feed video village. Kind of plays into the super modular-ness of the Red that we are all so jacked up on.

Matt Uhry
www.mattuhry.com
Click to expand...

This is exactly how I feel.

I shot with the D20 just a few weeks ago (studio) and the typical monitor groupies (client/producer/agency) could not get enough of the HD linear signal the D20 was sending to their 43inch plasma. Matt I understand how this can slow production down on an exterior location but in a studio or all day single interior situation it was a winner. As far as putting on a show this got a standing ovation. So if Red can give the HD out signal from the camera a frame line options like the D20 this would be a huge benefit and a winner that would blow every film cameras video tap out of the water. This would with out a doubt be a big winner with some of the people that have a lot of say on what kind of camera is used to shoot a project.
 
Stephen Williams said:
Hi,

I never seem to work on jobs where there is any time spare to view multiple sequences! IMHO video assist slows down the whole process of film making.

Stephen
Click to expand...

Well, first of all, we are talking about commercial film making in this topic. For the most part. So, like it or not, video assist is here to stay.

As for true 'film-making', it is up to the director and the budget. 100% of big budget feature shoots now have video assist. Ask the director if he thinks it slows the process down, or if it gives him more tools to make the final project better.

I see your point though, as it is shared by many in the electric and grip departments!
 
Finner said:
This is exactly how I feel.

I shot with the D20 just a few weeks ago (studio) and the typical monitor groupies (client/producer/agency) could not get enough of the HD linear signal the D20 was sending to their 43inch plasma. Matt I understand how this can slow production down on an exterior location but in a studio or all day single interior situation it was a winner. As far as putting on a show this got a standing ovation. So if Red can give the HD out signal from the camera a frame line options like the D20 this would be a huge benefit and a winner that would blow every film cameras video tap out of the water. This would with out a doubt be a big winner with some of the people that have a lot of say on what kind of camera is used to shoot a project.
Click to expand...

Again Finner comes through with the post that makes total sense. I think we are on our way to something here.

One thing that most on this thread are forgetting is that we are talking about the normal commercial shoot here. I have personally worked as a video guy on over 1000 commercial shoots over the past 10 years, and for anyone to think that the camera will EVER be used to playback footage on most high end shoots is silly. Just silly.

The remote control idea was interesting, but will NEVER work. The camera is an IMAGE RECORDING DEVICE. Not a frigging playback tool We are talking about commercials, where budgets are normally over $150,000. And can easily get over $500K or more. These shoots simply have a playback guy. This is a job that is needed.

And we playback guys don't ask for much. Just give us a feed out of the camera with accurate frame lines, and we'll be happy. Give us an HD feed with those same frame lines, and we'll be super happy. Give us an HD feed with NO frame lines. And we will be very unhappy.

So, give us a feed with framelines, and we will take it, run it to whatever recording device we choose to use. This should not concern you, camera people, as this is only for 'on-the-day' recording and playback, and I will erase it at the end of every shoot. This is what we are talking about in the thread. The on set playback. Not the master recording.

So, if us video guys have that feed with framelines, we will take it, run it through our cart, send it out to the clients/agency who are arguing over the placement of the last Cheerio in the bowl. We'll send a feed to soundguy who is reading the paper and waiting for more sync shots. We'll send it to teh director who is running rehearsals. We will send it an AD wireless (and hell, we'll even send it to his 2nds) as they place and rehearse background. We'll send it to the props people as they rig stuff for the next shot.

And yes, we will try our best to stay out of the grips and electric's way!

Anyways, you can see why framelines are so important right? When an A.D. is locking off an exterior background scene, he/she positions their 2nd's, and P.A.'s just off the edge of frame. I mean, I cannot count the thousands of times I have heard on set people yelling out, 'Am I out of frame yet?'

And no, the solution is not to say, "Well, this is RED, people are just gonna have to get used to a different workflow. The camera guys are gonna just have to get used to playing back footage. The agency is gonna have to get used to having no frame lines. etc. etc."

My whole point in starting this thread is to ensure that RED can find its way onto lots of commerical sets. I think this market is ripe for the picking by RED, over time. BUT, it must fit in, and improve, upon the current workflow. This is 100% essential. And it can. And it will. The post that Grahme I think it was, that said if we give you the option of a clean HD feed, or one with multiple, user-selectable frame lines, would the problem be solved?

The answer is most definately, YES.
 
Presumably you would want the HD feed to have the option of being derived by scaling from the full 2540p picture, ie with 'look-around'. Then frame lines within that could show where the 4k window was, where the 1080 HD window (ie 3840x2160) etc. But you would also need it to be possible to switch that 'overscan' off, so that the HD feed you got was identical to the HD that would be used in the edit.

Just trying to clarify.
 
now i know we can ASK for the moon .. but lets get down to the BOTTOM line.

can you work with the two 720p outs ( with frame line ) to get images to camera op, AC, video village ?
plus we have 1080p out without frame line... will those 3 outs work for you ?
 
HDMI drives the "meta-show"

HDMI drives the "meta-show"

Assuming that the outs for the EVF and LCD @720p are in use by the operator and the 1st (puller) then we have two likely candidates for the "meta-show" closed circuit world. I think just about everyone wants to keep the HD-SDI tap completely clean for direct recording purposes and hardline EFP apps. That leaves the HDMI tap (which I think the Red Team has always thought of as a monitoring port) available for the "meta-show". HDMI is becoming very common on consumer HDTVs and can be gender bent into DVI with a simple adapter for computer monitors so this makes it very easy and cost effective to procure monitors for on set use.

I am not a big fan of digging through menus but in this case how about a toggle between a clean out from HDMI and a marked up version (yes, setting the details of the exact markup you need will require a sub-menu - please don't shoot me). I am also hoping that the HDMI output is actually 1080 not 720 so it can put a more impressive image on a bigger client monitor - always nice to wow the folks signing the checks :D

Specific feature request: 1080 output from HDMI with optional frameline (and other camera data would be nice) overlays.
 
Blair S. Paulsen said:
Specific feature request: 1080 output from HDMI with optional frameline (and other camera data would be nice) overlays.
Click to expand...

Me and others already asked for 1080p out the HDMI on another thread, and optional menu framelines out HDMI would complete the equation. As of now the HDMI tap is 720p, but I'm sure they'll evaluate and do what they can within the time constraints. At some point they have to finalize the specs and produce the camera. By March we'll know what made "the cut".
 
Blair S. Paulsen said:
I think just about everyone wants to keep the HD-SDI tap completely clean for direct recording purposes and hardline EFP apps. That leaves the HDMI tap (which I think the Red Team has always thought of as a monitoring port) available for the "meta-show".
Click to expand...

From what Stuart said earlier, I think that there is both an HD-SDI and an HDMI dedicated to monitoring, separate from the Dual-Link HD-SDI (which can also be switched to Single-Link mode) for external recording or hard lined EFP.
 
Don't worry, we have computers

Don't worry, we have computers

If the architecture of the RedOne makes adding framlines to the HDMI outs incredibly difficult than perhaps we need an off camera solution. I still think that a video playback operator can take either the HDMI or HD-SDI tap and run it through a computer (or an HD switcher with a DDR) to add the framelines and record a proxy it can handle for immediate replay.

During the morning set up the camera can shoot a test chart so that the video guy can check frame marker alignment, it would only have to be done once.

An AJA card or something similar could be used both for input and to drive a video DA for distrib all over a big set.

Yes this will likely require a desktop style computer on wheels/cart or a laptop with an expansion chassis for PCIe.
 
That's a logical workaround Blair. Then if the HDMI was transmitted wireless from the camera to video viillage, it would reduce hardline clutter at the camera.
 
Skipdivils

I have experienced all of what you mention many times. What you say is just how it is. First off I salute you for taking the abuse and punishment of being a playback guy for 10 years (In fact I felt kind of guilty reading your post and thinking about how I could of been a lot nicer to the playback tech on a lot of shoots). Your comment on how some are saying well this is RED and people need to learn to do things differently, well I agree that is the biggest load of crap ever. Shoots will already be choosing to do things differently by using a RED in the first place, but in high budget cinematography of any type having to "jimmy rig" this and that and tape this and just imagine this will not fly. If that becomes the case these shoots will just choose film or the arri d20. Jim has mentioned that he wants to be competitive with the top cameras in the world and for it to do that it needs the features you mention. By the way I am no means slamming team RED with what I am saying. I am amazed at the scale of project they are taking on in such a short time (I would have thought it was impossible before I heard of RED and began researching it.). It's just the features mentioned by skipdivils are what the RED ONE is going to need to be looked at on the same level as the D20, genisis and future others. I hope the RED team see's these suggestions as our input on this because we want RED to be the best.


Nick Shaw said:
Presumably you would want the HD feed to have the option of being derived by scaling from the full 2540p picture, ie with 'look-around'. Then frame lines within that could show where the 4k window was, where the 1080 HD window (ie 3840x2160) etc. But you would also need it to be possible to switch that 'overscan' off, so that the HD feed you got was identical to the HD that would be used in the edit.

Just trying to clarify.
Click to expand...

Nick you are right about the HD feed needing to have the overscan as a must. If it is possible to have the a switch that could change it to the "identical HD feed as in the edit" would be a good feature that would be very nice but not needed on set if it is a difficult or expensive feature for RED to add.



Donatello

These things are high level features but in comparison to world class production cameras these are the standards the cameras have.
 
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