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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Video Assist on Set

Chris Parker

Chris Parker

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Hi there,

I am a video guy. I am wondering what the output will be for on set video assist. Will this be in the form of a BNC out? Is it a downconverted NTSC video feed, or strictly HD? Does it matter what format you shoot in for these video outs? If strictly HD, will there be an easy way to mount a downconverter, such as the Miranda box, on the camera?

Also, does the camera generate framelines? Say you are shooting 2K. Will there be accurate framelines for directors/agencies, etc. to KNOW what they will be getting on the TV when the edit is finished?

Really just looking for the planned on set workflow for video assist.
 
Red will have HD-SDI (on mini BNC) and HDMI, both at 720p, for monitoring. Guide frames will not be on this, but will be on the LCD and EVF. No SD monitoring output, or analog video out of any kind. You would have to use a down-converter.

This info, and more detail comes from Stuart's answer to me HERE

Nick
 
I do agree somewhat. Of course you could use an external down-stream-keyer to add frame lines, but it does seem un-necessarily complex. Since the HDMI and HD-SDI outputs are dedicated monitoring outputs, it would seem sensible to me if they were like the "test" outputs on a traditional video camera, and had overlays.

Can anybody from RED tell me if there is a specific reason those outputs can only be 'clean'? Or am I mis-reading Stuart's post?

Nick
 
They're clean because of internal camera architecture, which is very complex.

But the SDI outputs are fully WYSIWYG, unlike with a video assist on a film camera where it's a viewfinder feed, which is necessarily larger than the recorded area.
 
Fair enough Graeme. Shame though. It's only WYSIWYG if your intended distribution format will only ever be 16x9. What about 4x3 or 2.35?

A down-converter like the Miranda can overlay guide frames, time-code and other data, so will probably be a very useful addition on set.

Nick
 
Masking tape?

Graeme
 
Also a lot of monitors can overlay guide marks anyway. My edit suite HD broadcast monitor can show a 4x3 or a 14x9 frame over a 16x9 signal. No 2.35 though!

Nick
 
Yes I've put a lot of chinagraph marks on monitors over the years. Prefer doing it to other people's rather than my own though!

Trouble is chinagraph marks don't move when you switch over-scan on and off!
 
Grease pencil. Good one.

Anyways, yeah, a Miranda box, or some sort of other switcher to overlay the actual frame lines will be NECESSARY on commercials for sure. I hope this is addressed by RED at some point. I guess when it comes out, there will be a good workable solution to this problem find its way to everyone. I certainly don't want to have to run video through a switcher everyday just to generate framelines.
 
RED as far as use goes could be no different than any other video camera.
When you shoot HDCAM or VariCam it is pretty much WYSIWYG. You might
frame differently if you know the output is SD. Video assist in the traditional sense would not be needed on a RED shoot. What would be needed is people who understand digital workflow and have the necessary equipment and skills to assist RED shooters.
 
The HDMI feeds show the frame guides I think - but the SDI feeds are more designed for people who want to use the camera as a studio camera or to send output to tape.

Graeme
 
I couldn't disagree with you more Red Guy. Video assist will be needed on any commercial shoot. The ad agency/client will need to see what they will be getting on TV. The director will need instant access to any shot taken at any time. Video prints will still be needed. Rough cut editing will be needed, and the ability to match frames for f/x shots will be needed. Audio will be needed to be played back in sync with the video. Etc. etc.

The additional assistance needed by the camera team will no doubt also be needed, but it will not supplant the regular video assist.
 
Do they even still make commercials in 4:3 in the USA. In the UK (rest of Europe too, I think) they stopped doing that over 6 years ago.....

Video assist is a film term though. RED is already "video". What are people doing now when they shoot HDCAM or Varicam for a commercial?

Graeme
 
Graeme Nattress said:
Do they even still make commercials in 4:3 in the USA. In the UK (rest of Europe too, I think) they stopped doing that over 6 years ago.....
Click to expand...

Yes but we still have to protect for 14x9 for analog broadcast, and in fact also be aware that many digi-boxes belonging to people with 4x3 TVs are set to centre-cut the 16x9 to produce a 4x3 full-frame image.

Sadly wide-screen production is still a nightmare!

Also if your end result is DVD, you don't know if somebody will be watching it on a TV or a computer, so the over-scan area becomes an issue. For that reason I sometimes 'hard gate' DVDs to the action safe area.

Nick
 
Thanks Nick. I know how bad it is that people have their digiboxes incorrectly set up.

Graeme
 
Although video assist is a term for film, it is now more of an accepted term for a service provided on most high end shoots, film, HD, or even those done on DigiBeta or HVX cameras.

Right now, on HD shoots, a Miranda downconverter is used so that an NTSC feed can be given to the video guy. There are usually a couple of HD monitors on set for the DOP and maybe the client, and then the regular bunch of video playback monitors on set too. It is a weird shoot when HD is used, as the workflow is not quite there yet.

I am hoping that with the addition of RED to the marketplace, this whole on-set workflow can be smoothed out significantly, because this is the main reason most commercials are still shot on film. Once a workflow exists that will instill confidence in the agencies, production houses, DOPs, etc., this will help tremendously in having digital technology become more utilized in the commercial production world.

Remember, the one thing any ad agency does is take risks. And this will keep them away from RED if a system is not set up to ensure that they know 'on the day' what they will get after the edit, framing wise.

I am more than happy to work with anyone at RED on this 'on-set' workflow that will be NEEDED for the big commercial shoots. What you get away with on indie features is one thing, the requirements of commercial world are far more substantial when it comes to on-set monitors, playback, etc. I am going to be developing a full package for this service, to go along with my two red cameras, and again, if anyone at Red wants to work on this, I would love it.
 
On correction. I meant to say ad agencies do NOT take risks. Anyone who has worked on commercials, and watches as the agencies all work very hard to cover their asses as much as possible.

"Can we just cover it bigger."
"Now, can we cover it smaller."
"Can we just get one more for safety?"

etc. etc.

Anyways, point was, the on set workflow for RED must be flawless and efficient for DOPs, and agencies to buy into it.
 
I guess the answer is to shoot wide on 4k and crop in post to practically any dimension you want. If that's not safety, I don't know what is :-)

skipdivils, keep the conversation going here - there are some good brains on the forum that will help figure things out. I've only ever been on very low budget commercial shoots :-) And even appeared in one "enjoying" my lunch.

Graeme
 
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